BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => Desert Tech MDR => Topic started by: Box on October 13, 2017, 01:30:14 AM



Title: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 13, 2017, 01:30:14 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqwvVruY864 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqwvVruY864)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEGoTZfCj2o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEGoTZfCj2o)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 13, 2017, 01:52:43 AM
hmmm...link to written review...'page not found'.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: issues on October 13, 2017, 11:14:58 AM
Written review.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Slateman on October 13, 2017, 12:25:49 PM
Written review.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/)

Quote
Then again, I donít actually think itís as refined as a Tavor X95. The magazine release is too stiff, the trigger isnít as good, the balance and overall ergos arenít quite as good, and itís even gassier when suppressed (especially compared to the 300 BLK X95 with its adjustable gas block, which was effectively gas-free).

Not a rousing endorsement


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 13, 2017, 12:43:33 PM
he gave it four out of five stars, but i keep reading not the greatest trigger or worse than x95.  i thought this thing was pulling at 4.8lbs not 7.5lbs give or take.  curious how an oss or tranquilo would handle the gas blow-back.  it's accurate though and it handled steel fine apparently.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 13, 2017, 01:05:23 PM
Saying it had a worse trigger than an X95 shocked me.  And 7.5lbs trigger weight?  Is that correct??

It definitely seems accurate and the design features are great.  However, Iím sure those waiting for a gen 2 or later version feel they made the right decision.   Based on this review and othersí comments, it seems the MDR still needs some refinement/tweaking.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: rtp on October 13, 2017, 02:12:13 PM
So that was mixed for me, moreso as we can be pretty sure 'reviewer' guns get extra attention before shipping out.

Positives:
1.  No issues with mags falling out.
2.  No malfunctions across different ammo.
3.  Overall seemed to like the rifle.

Not so much:
1.  Stuff mag release - ok, so mags didn't fall out...this is good.  But makes me question what does it take to get it right on feel vs 'it works reliably'?
2.  Gas face.  Big gas face.  I'd wager rework of the gas block or adjustable gas block might be being discussed at DT...or should be.
3.  Mediocre accuracy including with FGMM.  Reviewer had a nice enough Tango optic with enough mag range to do things justice, but looks like a challenge to get MOA.
4.  WTF on trigger?  7.5 and 'satisfactory' trigger?  Something seems off here, moreso as anyone in right mind would be hand-picking and going through a reviewer rifle.  ???

Curious if DT is quietly making any changes to mag retention/release and the gas block in the background...


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Ditcher on October 13, 2017, 03:31:56 PM
I take it this is the same rifle Tim from MAC had?  If so I would have thought that mag release button would have worked its self out by now.  I remember by XDM had a real stiff mag release button when I bought it but after about 200 rounds it smooth out pretty nice.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Sdevante on October 13, 2017, 03:37:06 PM
So that was mixed for me, moreso as we can be pretty sure 'reviewer' guns get extra attention before shipping out.

Positives:
1.  No issues with mags falling out.
2.  No malfunctions across different ammo.
3.  Overall seemed to like the rifle.

Not so much:
1.  Stuff mag release - ok, so mags didn't fall out...this is good.  But makes me question what does it take to get it right on feel vs 'it works reliably'?
2.  Gas face.  Big gas face.  I'd wager rework of the gas block or adjustable gas block might be being discussed at DT...or should be.
3.  Mediocre accuracy including with FGMM.  Reviewer had a nice enough Tango optic with enough mag range to do things justice, but looks like a challenge to get MOA.
4.  WTF on trigger?  7.5 and 'satisfactory' trigger?  Something seems off here, moreso as anyone in right mind would be hand-picking and going through a reviewer rifle.  ???

Curious if DT is quietly making any changes to mag retention/release and the gas block in the background...

I hate to do this bc I know it's annoying, but I could swear I read somewhere that DT was thinking on how to make the mag release smoother off the production line. Maybe it was their Instagram or Facebook - I'll edit if I find the source.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: newguy2k3 on October 13, 2017, 03:58:44 PM

Curious if DT is quietly making any changes to mag retention/release and the gas block in the background...

I sure hope so. From my experience they are sorely needed


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: cjgemm on October 13, 2017, 06:28:06 PM
Guys, an adjustable GB is not going to keep gas from coming down the barrel, out the chamber and into your face.  My AUG and TAVOR do this as well.  I have cut rubber bands to seal up around the port covers and pic rail on my TAVOR.  Two mags through the AUG gives you a nice black shoulder from gas coming through the butt pad.  That why I put an OSS in jail to actually fix the problem...

I hear the LaRue TranQuilo is minimal on blow back as well.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: kfeltenberger on October 13, 2017, 07:23:53 PM
Written review.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/10/jeremy-s/desert-tech-mdr-gun-review/)

Quote
Then again, I donít actually think itís as refined as a Tavor X95. The magazine release is too stiff, the trigger isnít as good, the balance and overall ergos arenít quite as good, and itís even gassier when suppressed (especially compared to the 300 BLK X95 with its adjustable gas block, which was effectively gas-free).

Not a rousing endorsement

And yet the vast majority of his review was exceptionally positive.  There are some things about the review that have me scratching my head, namely the gas issue and the trigger as they don't seem constant with the other reviews that have been posted.  The rest of the review, however, seemed...amateurish given his accuracy results and overall poor writing style.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 13, 2017, 08:41:51 PM
The rest of the review, however, seemed...amateurish given his accuracy results and overall poor writing style.

haha...jesus kurt...i'm looking forward to your review then.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 13, 2017, 08:53:06 PM
Quote from: kfeltenberger
There are some things about the review that have me scratching my head, namely the gas issue and the trigger as they don't seem constant with the other reviews that have been posted.  The rest of the review, however, seemed...amateurish given his accuracy results and overall poor writing style.

MAC also complained about the gas.  He said heíd like to try his OSS on the MDR because of it.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: kfeltenberger on October 13, 2017, 08:59:06 PM
The rest of the review, however, seemed...amateurish given his accuracy results and overall poor writing style.

haha...jesus kurt...i'm looking forward to your review then.

I'll try!

I guess my issue is that he seemed rather biased going into it and constantly comparing it to the Tavor and X95, as if the MDR was a personal challenge to his pet guns.  If you have that feeling, then be up front about it going into the review.  Also, the effort put into the accuracy testing seemed almost like an afterthought, based on the writing, and it doesn't seem to support the other accuracy tests we've seen published.

Finally, the writing style...I felt like I was reading a tenth grade English field trip report.  It just wasn't...polished...and some of the sentences seemed like they were there for word count.  True, anyone with a computer and a website and push out "reviews" and whether it is good or bad (from a style perspective) they all offer usable datapoints.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: JK919 on October 14, 2017, 02:15:04 AM
Iím just disappointed about the blowback when shooting suppressed.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: spacegunz on October 14, 2017, 03:09:33 AM
If anything, this review is far too kind. 4/5 stars is quite generous given the issues reported.

Whether due to manufacturing inconsistency or not, a 7.5 pound trigger pull is much worse than average (even for bullpups, these days). And then thereís the gas face issues, the stiff and sometimes even catastrophically sticky mag release, and other quality control issues that are popping up at alarmingly frequent rates. These are issues of a sort you might expect from some garbage, bottom of the barrel, DPMS AR15; not a premium, $2500 so-called ďbattle rifleĒ.

For reporting these issues factually, is it really fair to accuse him of bashing the MDR unfairly? Why, for reporting a truth you donít want to hear? By all means let us be unbiased, but that goes both ways.

The comparison with the Tavor X95 is not only appropriate, but necessary. If the trigger is indeed worse than an X95, thatís a very important and relatable data point. 7.5 lbs is indeed worse than an X95 by a large margin (thatís closer to the original SAR pull weight). People do bash on the X95 trigger too much though; I suspect because many people never actually tried it and just remember the old SAR trigger.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 14, 2017, 04:34:06 AM
The rifle only just came out. All rifles have an initial teething phase. I'm sure DT is making notes of complaints and will make revisions as the rifle matures. It does seem that a small handful of people here have complained about the trigger, magazine release, some magazines failing to drop free, and gas-face. I don't think initial teething issues are things to get all worked up about. Most rifles have them. The Keltec RDB had several issues upon release, and those have mostly been worked out by now. That being said, I am glad I am waiting on my purchase until the rifle matures a bit.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: gunowner55 on October 14, 2017, 09:01:24 AM
Hello , to change the subject a little bit , has anyone any new updates on the F90 Atrax ?


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: The Heretic on October 14, 2017, 10:37:10 AM
Saying it had a worse trigger than an X95 shocked me.  And 7.5lbs trigger weight?  Is that correct??

It definitely seems accurate and the design features are great.  However, Iím sure those waiting for a gen 2 or later version feel they made the right decision.   Based on this review and othersí comments, it seems the MDR still needs some refinement/tweaking.

I am feeling that, yes. Indeed, I am wondering whether to get one at all at this point. With the Tavor 7 coming to the USA, that makes even more competition. Lost opportunity DT - that is the cost of delays.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: rtp on October 14, 2017, 01:31:57 PM
Hello , to change the subject a little bit , has anyone any new updates on the F90 Atrax ?

You're posting this not only in the an MDR specific thread, but in the MDR forum.
Try the Steyr forum(s) here for Atrax info and discussion: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?board=4.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?board=4.0)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 14, 2017, 01:53:01 PM
Whether due to manufacturing inconsistency or not, a 7.5 pound trigger pull is much worse than average (even for bullpups, these days).

lol...tavor sar, aug, fs2000 all have much worse triggers.  the x95 isn't luxury either...and the rdb pulls around 5-6lbs although better than the aforementioned.  i haven't shot a k&m hearing they're the best so i can't speak to that.  far reaching statement...

but i'm with you regarding your concerns.  if it's the same t&e gun mac reviewed then the sticky mag release isn't a surprise.  but, i believe a couple of forum members here have complained about this as well.

DT has faced a lot of challenges along the way and i'm sure they'll iron out the kinks along the way.  Not like we haven't seen this before with sig recalls or subtle changes to a sku with all manufacturers.  likewise, the kel-tec rdb has seen numerous revisions since launch and those guns are still scarce.  this MDR is in demand so i'm not worried about the slow production.

although i'll admit i've taken a liking to the new tavor 7 aesthetically over the MDR and how left and right ejection is configured although you still have to disassemble and rotate the bolt for left ejection.  the MDR is still leading for me with ambi bolt and ejection and the quickest caliber change and weighs the same.

and above all they're production overload might be a blessing in disguise with aftermarket barrels/support being available sooner than later.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 14, 2017, 02:46:00 PM
Jeremy S of TTAG in response to a comment about the MDR being overgassed:

Quote
Theyíre addressing this with a better gas selection.

Iíd like to hear more.   CBM?  Can you share anything?



Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: cjgemm on October 14, 2017, 04:47:06 PM
And more settings will improve gas to the face how?


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 14, 2017, 04:50:24 PM
And more settings will improve gas to the face how?

Less blowback?


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: cjgemm on October 14, 2017, 05:01:40 PM
It will reduce pressure in the gas system, but do nothing to keep gas from coming down the barrel and into the action of the gun.  From their it will find its way into the receiver and with a bullpup that is where you put your face.

Edit to add, the only way to reduce blow back is with a can designed to do so.  Traditional cans restrict the gas flow out the muzzle end which ends up forcing it down the barrel.  The quieter the can typically the more blowback it has.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Chief Master on October 14, 2017, 09:00:01 PM
It seems to me that an easy fix to gas in the face is to make ejection port covers with rubber seals. But perhaps for one reason or another that's not feasible.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: kfeltenberger on October 14, 2017, 09:14:15 PM
If anything, this review is far too kind. 4/5 stars is quite generous given the issues reported.

Whether due to manufacturing inconsistency or not, a 7.5 pound trigger pull is much worse than average (even for bullpups, these days). And then thereís the gas face issues, the stiff and sometimes even catastrophically sticky mag release, and other quality control issues that are popping up at alarmingly frequent rates. These are issues of a sort you might expect from some garbage, bottom of the barrel, DPMS AR15; not a premium, $2500 so-called ďbattle rifleĒ.

This rifle appears to be an anomaly on this issue as others have reported just the opposite with regard to the trigger pull.  The mag release could be an issue of stacked tolerances, where low rate production parts are fine, but as production ramps up, the tolerances begin to stack and cause issues.  As for "alarming rates" of anything, all we're seeing are a handful of reviews and comments that really aren't, IMO, indicative of the entire product run.  Everyone who purchased an MDR doesn't live on forums, and after the past year and a half, they probably actively avoid mention of the rifle for good or bad.

For reporting these issues factually, is it really fair to accuse him of bashing the MDR unfairly? Why, for reporting a truth you donít want to hear? By all means let us be unbiased, but that goes both ways.

The comparison with the Tavor X95 is not only appropriate, but necessary. If the trigger is indeed worse than an X95, thatís a very important and relatable data point. 7.5 lbs is indeed worse than an X95 by a large margin (thatís closer to the original SAR pull weight). People do bash on the X95 trigger too much though; I suspect because many people never actually tried it and just remember the old SAR trigger.

Is it fair to accuse him of bashing the MDR?  Yes.  The review was amateurishly written and was more like a review of going to the range for a fun day than a serious review.  The way the report was written and the impression it left me was that the reviewer was biased towards the X95.  Conduct an apples to apples review...but you can't because I have yet to see an X95 in 7.62x51mm.    The accuracy tests were haphazard, and the overall feel was that not much effort would be put into trying to show the rifle in the best light. 

Your opinion my vary, but this one is mine.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Potss on October 14, 2017, 10:43:49 PM
Review seems pretty spot on.

This is why you wait for the 2.0.  Needs an AGB or similar solution badly, and needs an improved trigger and probably a better barrel.  The last two supposedly come with the "Echo" we'll have to wait and see.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: bpguy on October 14, 2017, 10:49:41 PM
Seems to me from the reviews I have read and speaking personally to a couple of folks that own them the MDR has a sub par trigger just like most all bullpups.  I even pulled it myself and SHOT2017 and thought it was sub par there and they were touting a match trigger and they were improving it before release.  Long travel and kind of a mush just like most.  So much for a good trigger DT.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: ney1 on October 15, 2017, 02:30:48 AM
Reviewers don't follow scientific evaluation they have a short time to play with the rifle and provide their perspectives.  It doesn't make them right or wrong it just helps offer insights into the product. Luckily our engineers do follow scientific analysis. The MDR trigger is not 7.5 lbs it averages between 4.5-5 lbs.  in addition the mag release button on the x95 is way to close to the pistol grip so it is very hard to actuate it.  The MDR's mag button is located in exactly the same location as an ar15 in reference to the pistol grip.  MAC's MDR review stated the mag buttons were in the same location on the MDR and x95 which isn't true.  The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 15, 2017, 03:00:10 AM
The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?

the x95 fits like a glove and is very comfortable.  now the tavor sar on the other hand was less so for me.  i have yet to hold an MDR.  to each their own though.  not sure i understood his under refined statement either; the MDR looks like it's pretty high quality in comparison to others...not just tavors.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: ttarp on October 15, 2017, 06:57:17 AM
Seemed like as good quality a review as you could expect from such a source?  Also seemed like a genuinely positive review despite the trigger and suppressor issues.  I don't see the fuss about the X95 being brought up, likely its the bullpup rifle the reviewer was most familiar with, and the closest thing he had to compare it with.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: reason on October 15, 2017, 09:49:56 AM
Like it or not the X95/Tavor is the most popular bullpup for non bullpup fans. Its only natural that people will compare the MDR to those two rifles. That doesnt make it a "bias". Its a natural context for differentiation for those folks.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: bpguy on October 15, 2017, 01:17:12 PM
Reviewers don't follow scientific evaluation they have a short time to play with the rifle and provide their perspectives.  It doesn't make them right or wrong it just helps offer insights into the product. Luckily our engineers do follow scientific analysis. The MDR trigger is not 7.5 lbs it averages between 4.5-5 lbs.  in addition the mag release button on the x95 is way to close to the pistol grip so it is very hard to actuate it.  The MDR's mag button is located in exactly the same location as an ar15 in reference to the pistol grip.  MAC's MDR review stated the mag buttons were in the same location on the MDR and x95 which isn't true.  The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?
NEY1, the gage that MAC used in his video does not lie.  6lb 12oz.  The gage was placed right where it is supposed to be, where the shooter would place his/her finger.  That is 4oz away from being a 7lb trigger.  These are 2 separate articles stating almost the same results and there are more examples.  So from where we sit, that is a lie to state "it averages between 4.5-5 lbs."


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Ditcher on October 15, 2017, 01:41:54 PM
So Ney1 what's going on with the Group Buy orders?  Not expecting a reply but I tought it be fun.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: JesseJames38 on October 15, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
AS much as I am looking forward to receiving my MDR rifle I am a little but not to concerned about the trigger weight. I am more concerned about the mag release issue.      But from going back and looking the Video from mac and then looking at the TTAG review I see that they are both the same rifle.  Serial number 1536.   So it make sense that Tim pulls at 6lbs and 12 oz to match what TTAG is pulling at 7.5lbs.  Perhaps this is just a one off situation.  Or maybe there are other rifles being sent out that has this same trigger issue.     Its hard to say that the majority of the firearms are being sent out with a 7lb trigger pull when all the reviews are being made with the same rifle.  I am still waiting on some video reviews of people who own there own firearms that do have a trigger gage to really get a good idea what the majority of the rifles are being shipped with. As for the Gas issue,  I don't have a suppressor but it dose seem there is room on the gas valve to add 1 or 2 more settings from the photos I have seen.  If not it looks like the part is easy enough to make if some one has a milling machine and/or lathe they could make there own gas valve system.  Beyond that taking off the butt pad, cheek pad and putting a thin coat of black RTV on it and installing them two parts in would help some.  and possibly a small bead around the port cover edge to make a rubber gasket would do the trick

Jesse


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 15, 2017, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: bpguy
NEY1, the gage that MAC used in his video does not lie.  6lb 12oz.  The gage was placed right where it is supposed to be, where the shooter would place his/her finger.  That is 4oz away from being a 7lb trigger.  These are 2 separate articles stating almost the same results and there are more examples.  So from where we sit, that is a lie to state "it averages between 4.5-5 lbs."

That seems a little harsh.  Iím no trigger expert, but arenít trigger weights affected by where the gauge is placed on the trigger?   Again, Iím no expert so others can chime in.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Chief Master on October 15, 2017, 02:10:34 PM
Overall, ney1, you just came off as being defensive. Instead of disparaging reviewers because they don't follow your same "scientific evaluation," you should acknowledge that the rifle they reviewed had a heavy trigger pull and find out what caused it. And reviewers are going to compare the MDR to the X95 and RDB/RFB, because that's the competition out here. Many aspects of a review--especially comparing ergonomics of one rifle to another--are subjective, and we customers know that and take it with a grain of salt. You don't need to come out of the gate swinging: I still think the rifle looks awesome and I can't wait to get mine!


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Ascinder on October 15, 2017, 04:25:56 PM
Most importantly, what threshold of trigger pull/ mag release difficulty would DT consider to be excessive and warrant fixing? If the average trigger weight is supposed to be 4.5-5 lbs, at what point would it be sent back? 6 lbs? 6.5 lbs? 7 lbs? Is the trigger system adjustable at all where DT could just send out a replacement spring or guide where customers could fix the problem themselves?
The mag release concerns me quite a bit as some have brought up issues with stiffness/stickiness and other have said mags either drop free on their own or wont drop free at all. That seems like a legit issue.
The gas system could probably use several more suppressed settings. That was something I have been saying ever since we found out it would only have a couple. Out of everything, that should be a pretty straightforward fix since it would likely just be a replacement gas plug. The lower pressures of a more adjustable plug and a simple gasket, RTV, thick grease, etc on the ejectors should fix the gas face. Obviously a low backpressure suppressor would greatly help with this.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: newguy2k3 on October 15, 2017, 07:09:12 PM
The pull weight on mine is probably right in the 5lb range, I had no complaints with that. The .2" of creep I do have issue with. It was really gritty at first but a little lube and use smoothed it out but the creep remained. I actually prefer the milspec trigger in my bushmaster to the mdr.

Maybe I got a bad one though. They're supposed to be looking at it.

Fwiw my ar's all have geisselle, larue or lmt 2 stages so I may be a little spoiled.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Slateman on October 15, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
Review seems pretty spot on.

This is why you wait for the 2.0.  Needs an AGB or similar solution badly, and needs an improved trigger and probably a better barrel.  The last two supposedly come with the "Echo" we'll have to wait and see.

It has an AGB and an AGB isn't going to do a lot for supressed gas leakage.

Where is there official confirmation that the Echo model will have a better trigger and/or barrel?


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Chief Master on October 15, 2017, 08:37:37 PM
Where is there official confirmation that the Echo model will have a better trigger and/or barrel?

There is none. At one of the (four) Shot Shows where the MDR has appeared, one of the engineers mentioned that a "DMR" version would be coming out, and that it would have a better trigger and/or be more accurate than the regular version. So nothing to hang your hat on.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Kenndapp on October 15, 2017, 10:10:14 PM
I own an x95. I own a MDR. I own a MDR that went back to desert tech for a laundry list of problems. The trigger being a major complaint. I thought something was wrong with it. I don't own a trigger gauge. I have measured nothing. I do however know and pull all types of triggers, and have for a great number of years now.

Take it from me.... desert tech dropped the ball hard when it comes to the trigger. For me anyway.... twice.

The x95 trigger is much nicer than the MDR trigger. The MDR trigger is close in pull weight to the x95 accept longer, grittier, and way creepier. And when I say that I am speaking of the "improved" or "fixed" trigger I got back from desert tech. Truth be told I don't know if  they touched it. They took care of my other problems but when it came to the trigger all that was said was "verified correct function of trigger". It was disappointing before I sent it back and it was disappointing upon return. My word is all I have to back these statements up. So take it for what it's worth. Exactly what you paid for it. That's my experience. That's all I can share.

Edited to say: the trigger is not unshootable by any means. However it is a far cry from what we were lead to believe we would be getting.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: JesseJames38 on October 15, 2017, 11:02:28 PM
Dont take this the wrong way Kenndapp.   But what where you lead to beleave?   Granted i never pulled a trigger on a x95 or a MDR i am still waiting on mine. But i do have a rock river arms 2 stage nm trigger in my AR's.   All i remember stated was the MDR has a two stage trigger at 4.5 to 5 lbs.     

Jesse


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 15, 2017, 11:18:09 PM
i also liked the trigger on the x95 when i had time with it.  it was much better than the 10lb trigger on the tavor.  it was decent enough to have me wondering if i liked it better than the rdb trigger.  forgot to mention, speaking to stock triggers and not aftermarket here.  that said...my fs2000 has a mushy creepy trigger, but does have a distinct break that you can actually rest on...although still terrible.  steyr aug trigger...i thought it was terrible as well.

few here seem concerned but at least you'll have an aftermarket option with regard to design it appears with the MDR.  the only other bullpups to benefit from drop-in solutions appear to be the tavors - tav-d, timney & geissele.  k&m apparently has the best trigger out of box, but believe they're elftmann triggers.  you can modify the fs2000 trigger pack with lighter springs that engage the sear, but becomes an issue if too light when dropping...hammer prone to slipping; springs keep tension on sear as it slides back an forth.  but, some have sent for modification with 4.5-5.5lb pulls.

i digressed but i wonder if the vibe would be any different here because of the expectations in knowing that they have great triggers in their precision rifles as if that legacy SHOULD have carried over to a similar degree.

 





Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: newguy2k3 on October 15, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
I can say about my experience with my particular rifle that calling the trigger a 2 stage is a stretch at the very least.

After take up I measured ~.2" of travel(measured at the very tip) until it broke. If I let off before it broke and even if I engaged the safety the trigger did not return to the start point. There was no detectable 2nd stage to me. I'm calling it a single stage with a good amount of creep.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 16, 2017, 11:48:37 AM
I donít get why DT didnít do so good on this trigger, from what it sounds like. Is the linkage longer? The technology is out there now. My RDB has an amazing trigger. I have an AR15 Colt 6920 with a Geissele SSA trigger in it, and it is awesome, and I would say that my RDB trigger is either as good if not slightly better than the Geissele. Both are two stage, or atleast the RDB feels that way, and it is a bullpup.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: newguy2k3 on October 16, 2017, 01:39:15 PM
From what I could tell the linkage isn't the issue with mine. It was in the trigger pack itself which is good because it should be an easy fix but also puzzling as to why it's that bad in the first place.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 16, 2017, 02:02:23 PM
Iím sure Shooting Sight and Geissele will come out with aftermarket trigger packs as more people get their hands on them.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Potss on October 16, 2017, 02:20:37 PM
Yeah I'm really hoping they or someone improves the trigger.  Just s***ty you'd have to fix it and/or put up with it given what the gun costs.

And I don't count "Adverse, Normal, Suppressed" as much in the way of adjustments.  Clearly this needs to be turned down way more, and/or something to delay unlock as it looks (as is generally the case) most of the gas is coming from the chamber uncorking early (which is common for piston guns to begin with).  But you are right, if there are other leaks they need to be addressed as well.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 17, 2017, 09:36:44 AM
Iíve stated before I felt downward ejection is better because itís simpler and probably more reliable.  Itís one of the reasons I think the RDBís simple design is excellent, but itís a keltec and I donít trust it.

Well, after shooting a PS90 a ton this weekend, Iím more open-minded to the MDRís forward-ejecting design.   I always thought its forward-ejection was very interesting but maybe needlessly complicated (seeing MACís video has me re-thinking that).  

I donít have an RDB, but as mentioned before I do have FNís downward-ejecting bullpup - the PS90 (one of my absolute favorites).    This has never happened to me before, but I got some nasty hot brass burns while shooting off a table.   Again, this has never happened to me before and likely is a non-issue if wearing sleeves, but it made re-think the MDRís ejection method.   Hot brass potentially falling on your bare arms simply wouldnít happen with the MDR, so itís not a distraction you have to give a momentís thought.

I just hope the early teething issues get worked out.   I also hope the 5.56 MDR somehow manages to lose some weight.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Chief Master on October 17, 2017, 12:41:02 PM
Hot brass potentially falling on your bare arms simply wouldnít happen with the MDR, so itís not a distraction you have to give a momentís thought.

To be fair, though, shooting the MDR offhand results in the hot brass being shot directly at your arm. Personally, I don't know which one I'd like better, since I've never fired a PS90, RDB, or MDR. Hopefully I'll be crossing one of those off that list soon!  ;)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Box on October 17, 2017, 05:08:16 PM
Hot brass potentially falling on your bare arms simply wouldnít happen with the MDR, so itís not a distraction you have to give a momentís thought.

To be fair, though, shooting the MDR offhand results in the hot brass being shot directly at your arm. Personally, I don't know which one I'd like better, since I've never fired a PS90, RDB, or MDR. Hopefully I'll be crossing one of those off that list soon!  ;)

A PS90 is awesome.  You need one!   The optic rail that comes on it is trash, should be removed immediately and replaced with a design machine mount for an RDS of your choice.  I put a damage industries picatinny rail w/QD slot for my custom savvy sniper sling.   After that, file a form 1 for an SBR and itíll be the star of the party.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Chief Master on October 17, 2017, 05:48:21 PM
A PS90 is awesome.  You need one!   The optic rail that comes on it is trash, should be removed immediately and replaced with a design machine mount for an RDS of your choice.  I put a damage industries picatinny rail w/QD slot for my custom savvy sniper sling.   After that, file a form 1 for an SBR and itíll be the star of the party.

Wow, I had never heard of design machine before. Good stuff. I always thought the PS90 optic situation was a bit funky, but they came up with a really effective solution.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 18, 2017, 03:57:21 AM
delete this post


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 18, 2017, 03:59:01 AM
Iíve stated before I felt downward ejection is better because itís simpler and probably more reliable.  Itís one of the reasons I think the RDBís simple design is excellent, but itís a keltec and I donít trust it.

Well, after shooting a PS90 a ton this weekend, Iím more open-minded to the MDRís forward-ejecting design.   I always thought its forward-ejection was very interesting but maybe needlessly complicated (seeing MACís video has me re-thinking that).  

I donít have an RDB, but as mentioned before I do have FNís downward-ejecting bullpup - the PS90 (one of my absolute favorites).    This has never happened to me before, but I got some nasty hot brass burns while shooting off a table.   Again, this has never happened to me before and likely is a non-issue if wearing sleeves, but it made re-think the MDRís ejection method.   Hot brass potentially falling on your bare arms simply wouldnít happen with the MDR, so itís not a distraction you have to give a momentís thought.

I just hope the early teething issues get worked out.   I also hope the 5.56 MDR somehow manages to lose some weight.

I would HIGHLY recommend the RDB. The only issue with them is that Keltec put out a few lemons in the early days of the RDB, but those have mostly been resolved. If you get a recent production model, it will most likely be problem free. Those that are, tend to be very reliable. If you remove reliability as a question from the equation, the RDB handles and outperforms any 5.56 tactical rifle on the market today.

My Colt 6920 is my only serious go-to rifle only because I feel that no bullpup has shown the ability to measure up to the AR15 as of yet. The RDB would do so, if it weren't for the fact that it's made by Keltec, and as such, can never be fully trusted. If Keltec refuses to ever contract execution, QC and production to a competent company, then I wish there existed an independent agency that could accept private RDBs for testing and evaluation to confirm reliability and parts/materials longevity, and find defects/flaws and have recommended mods to implement in order to bring them up to quality.

If anyone knows of any company that does this, please let me know. I would happily send my RDB in to be inspected for quality, by an independent authority. If I knew I could trust my RDB in the same way I trust by Colt 6920, it would replace my AR as my serious go-to rifle just due to how well it handles.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: coldboremiracle on October 18, 2017, 11:33:20 AM
There is an incredible amount of subjectivity going on with these reviews, take it for what it cost you. I don't know Jeremy personally, but I assume he is pretty good at what he does. That said I don't completely agree with everything he mentioned in his review. I'll again give you guys my opinion based off of the half dozen or so MDR's that I have shot, maybe I'm just not very picky.
Mag release: It is stiffer than average but until someone mentioned it, I hadn't even thought about it. Not a single time have I been shooting an MDR and had the release of a magazine catch my attention. Maybe I just have strong hands ;)
Gas Face: I have only shot a few suppressed AR's, both DI and Blowback. In my opinion, the MDR is no better or worse than other guns I have experienced. I have run my Silencerco Hybrid (with 45 end cap) on EVERY MDR I have shot. I haven't experienced any broken brass, nor black smears on my face or neck. I am sure the variations in back pressure from one can to another have great affect on how the gun functions. The concerns about gas settings have been heard, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if more gas setting options are made available to compensate for these variations.
Accuracy: My initial accuracy test resulted in several sub MOA and other plus MOA groups, but the average was right at MOA. I have shot several others since and it has been my experience that the MDR is reliably a 1 MOA gun. The gun sitting on my lap at the moment is accurate enough to repeatedly hit 1/2 gallon jugs at 500yds all day long. Just the other day I put it on an 8 inch steel target at 800 yards, it was not hard to keep it on target but for doping the mountain breeze.
Trigger: I haven't measured the trigger pull weight on most of the guns, but they haven't felt bad either. Some of them are a little "scratchy" in the beginning. But after some break-in, they feel pretty smooth. I would like a lighter, cleaner trigger, sure. You could say that on all but the very best guns.

I have limited experience shooting the Tavor, X95, Aug, but from what I have experienced, I would look right past them and grab my MDR.  Is it perfect? No, it has issues like any gun. But they are not significant enough to me to warrant as much apprehension and concern as given here on the BPF.  I am taking the MDR Deer hunting this weekend here in the high Rocky Mountains, shots can be anywhere from 50 yds to a mile or more. High angles, more of that cold mountain breeze, cross canyons, and quick shots are all to be anticipated. All that said, I am quite confident with the MDR in my hands. And I find myself very excited to get stuck into it with this awesome little package.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/33cyu8p.jpg)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Frostburg on October 18, 2017, 02:49:27 PM
CBM, do you have any experience with the MDR in 5.56? I think many of us are only interested in the 5.56 rifle and want to know how it handles.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: HBeretta on October 18, 2017, 03:20:23 PM
digressing here...i really liked the two-tone fde look in the video below.  guess you could duracoat for less than professional cerakote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzhW_IbhgZo&t=13s
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzhW_IbhgZo&t=13s)


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on October 18, 2017, 11:24:50 PM
Speaking of two-tone. I hate to be "that guy" but i just noticed the polymer color on that overmolded handguard is way off from the others.  CBM can you comment? Is it that off, or is the camera playing tricks? Is it a production run, or a prototype or test run?   Not a huge deal just curious.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: coldboremiracle on October 19, 2017, 12:10:17 PM
Speaking of two-tone. I hate to be "that guy" but i just noticed the polymer color on that overmolded handguard is way off from the others.  CBM can you comment? Is it that off, or is the camera playing tricks? Is it a production run, or a prototype or test run?   Not a huge deal just curious.
That is a black handguard that was painted a shade of FDE. Not a representation of factory stuff at all. The FDE Overmoulded handguards will be the exact same shade as the lower receiver/standard handguard.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: coldboremiracle on October 19, 2017, 12:12:49 PM
CBM, do you have any experience with the MDR in 5.56? I think many of us are only interested in the 5.56 rifle and want to know how it handles.
Yes, it handles just as you would imagine. Short rifle, easily pointed, very little recoil. Everything else is identical to the 762 fitted rifles.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: rtp on October 19, 2017, 12:54:39 PM
CBM, do you have any experience with the MDR in 5.56? I think many of us are only interested in the 5.56 rifle and want to know how it handles.
Yes, it handles just as you would imagine. Short rifle, easily pointed, very little recoil. Everything else is identical to the 762 fitted rifles.

Thanks - that at least gives some real confirmation that at least one 5.56 working version does exist, versus 'guessing' on if design/test is even started at this point.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: Slateman on October 19, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
CBM, do you have any experience with the MDR in 5.56? I think many of us are only interested in the 5.56 rifle and want to know how it handles.
Yes, it handles just as you would imagine. Short rifle, easily pointed, very little recoil. Everything else is identical to the 762 fitted rifles.

Thanks - that at least gives some real confirmation that at least one 5.56 working version does exist, versus 'guessing' on if design/test is even started at this point.
There are videos of MDRs being shot from two years ago.


Title: Re: TTAG has an MDR (videos)
Post by: coldboremiracle on October 19, 2017, 02:51:04 PM
CBM, do you have any experience with the MDR in 5.56? I think many of us are only interested in the 5.56 rifle and want to know how it handles.
Yes, it handles just as you would imagine. Short rifle, easily pointed, very little recoil. Everything else is identical to the 762 fitted rifles.

Thanks - that at least gives some real confirmation that at least one 5.56 working version does exist, versus 'guessing' on if design/test is even started at this point.
There are videos of MDRs being shot from two years ago.
The guns in those videos share little more than appearance with the current MDR.