BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor & X-95 => Topic started by: ricklee4570 on September 13, 2017, 07:51:35 AM



Title: BUIS Question
Post by: ricklee4570 on September 13, 2017, 07:51:35 AM
I just purchased a used Tavor SAR. I am new to this rifle (AR-15 owner for many many years). No idea when mine was made, the previous owner claims he bought it new a year ago (said he paid $1,700 for it). Says he put exactly 100 rounds through it.

Everything I have read says that the Tavor has flip up back up iron sights. Mine does not. There are no sights integrated into the picatinny rail. 

Was there an option to purchase the Tavor without any back up sights? Or did this guy switch out rails? Thanks for any help!


Title: Re:
Post by: Tvfreakarms on September 13, 2017, 08:01:43 AM
Do u have a pic of it?
It does come with integrated buis.
The previous owner must of got an aftermarket rail.
Why didn't this person give you all the oem parts?
1700 is about the right price.
The sar tavor game into the market around 2012 or 2013

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: xdmikey on September 13, 2017, 08:57:44 AM
Contact the seller and ask for the purchase riginal rail.

After going with the tav-d trigger pack I was able to hit the steel at 200 yds using the buis.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: ricklee4570 on September 13, 2017, 09:13:29 AM
I finally contacted the original owner and he said he did in fact purchase a long rail from "Gear Head Works" and replaced the original.  When I asked him why he said the Gear Head Works rail allowed him to use any optics he wanted. This seems strange to me, as wouldnt the original rail allow for the same?  What advantage does the aftermarket rail have?


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: ricklee4570 on September 13, 2017, 09:48:31 AM
Okay, seems I have found some answers. He wanted a higher cheek weld (was using a red dot scope). Makes sense now.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 15, 2017, 10:42:00 AM
A higher cheek weld was a must for me.  Because it's so low I couldn't torque my head enough to even get a sight picture on the stock irons.

I have two 1/2" risers on my top rail (away from the disassembly bolts) which have a set of Samson folding BUIS and a trijicon RM01.  Lightweight and perfect for what I want.



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: cciman on September 16, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
The stock irons seemed too low for me too, untill I attended a IWI class-- there I was shown that the stock irons were in fact not too low and I did not need a additional riser for the (AR height) red dot.



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: Leonitus on September 16, 2017, 06:39:24 PM
Wow


I've been shooting the M16/AR for 32 years. Recently bought a SAR, found the factory BUIS to be the perfect height, I have also found that I can run optics, pulled straight off my ARs and they are PERFECT for the Tavor.  I'm confused as to why the seller needed a higher rail. Why not just get a higher optic mount or correct your chin weld to a cheek weld?


Title: Re:
Post by: fatty on September 16, 2017, 07:01:39 PM
I guess i have large cheek bones that dont allow a comfortable cheek weld at stock rail height.  I opt for lower 1/3 mounts on my ARs so i guess its only natural that the tavor would be very low for me.

The 1/2" risers allow me to add buis to the correct height so i can cowitness and maintain the same position should my RMR go down.

The downside is a 4" height over bore, but zero'd at 100yards is still perfectly good to go.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 16, 2017, 07:07:31 PM
The stock irons seemed too low for me too, untill I attended a IWI class-- there I was shown that the stock irons were in fact not too low and I did not need a additional riser for the (AR height) red dot.
You have me lost here...  what did IWI show you that made the rail height OK after initially finding it too low? 

I literally could not see a proper sight picture without cramming my face into the stock into an awkward position...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: Leonitus on September 17, 2017, 08:37:02 AM
I did not consider the idea that skeletal structure could have an influence. No idea why I didn't think of that.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 17, 2017, 11:52:06 AM
You're making me feel like the elephant man now...  i swear i have a normal size face lol


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: Leonitus on September 17, 2017, 12:50:00 PM
Awe jeez........


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 17, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
 {:-D}


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: Leonitus on September 17, 2017, 02:37:26 PM
Apology is a sign of weakness........so, ya won't hear me say that.

 ;D


Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: cciman on September 17, 2017, 06:50:52 PM
The stock irons seemed too low for me too, untill I attended a IWI class-- there I was shown that the stock irons were in fact not too low and I did not need a additional riser for the (AR height) red dot.
You have me lost here...  what did IWI show you that made the rail height OK after initially finding it too low? 

I literally could not see a proper sight picture without cramming my face into the stock into an awkward position...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



I also have what I thought to be a large head, wide face, and wide papillary distance, but after zeroing the pop up IS from what I thought to be ridiculously low for my face (I even complained to the instructor that this wasn't going to work, and grumbled when he MADE me take off my 1/2" riser off my RDS), and using the aimpoint Pro at AR height all that weekend, now it seems natural.  Conclusion is....I must have been cheek welding improperly prior to the course, and now, it is natural.

So the question everyone should ask: why did the IDF/IWI use the BUIS sight height that they do?  Do the Israelis have narrow faces?

If you like chin welds like AK's with folding sights, and head perfectly up, this is something to get used to.



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 17, 2017, 07:04:26 PM
So the instructors answer was just to get it done and deal with it...

Still dont understand what youre saying was taught or passed on by that instructor.  Ive shot rifles of all sorts for years and never encountered this.

Im sure GHW and MI make raised rails for good reason lol



Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 18, 2017, 05:08:18 AM
I think the problem/ whatever when the Sight height is how people shoulder it.
If you put the gun all the way Down into your shoulder, cheekweld is too low...
If you put it Higher into your shoulder, so maybe an inch of two of the stock is above your shoulder it's perfect cheekweld.

I bring the gun to my eyes when I shoulder it, I don't move my head when I aim....  I bring the gun to my eyes.. same with pistols, this is how I was trained. 

Tilting head to find sight picture = bad
Bringing sights/gun into alignment to your eyes = good


Now, the thing is everyone has different bodies, some people have giraffe neck, some have pug neck.  And that is where different rail height is nice.

Personally, stock rail is perfect for me.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 18, 2017, 05:10:58 AM
Manticore curved buttpad makes perfect cheekweld more intuitive fwiw
 :2cents

Either way, op your rifle is fine.  Shoot the piss out of it and enjoy.


Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 18, 2017, 05:18:30 AM
The stock irons seemed too low for me too, untill I attended a IWI class-- there I was shown that the stock irons were in fact not too low and I did not need a additional riser for the (AR height) red dot.
You have me lost here...  what did IWI show you that made the rail height OK after initially finding it too low? 

I literally could not see a proper sight picture without cramming my face into the stock into an awkward position...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



 
So the question everyone should ask: why did the IDF/IWI use the BUIS sight height that they do? 









They engineered it perfectly to cheekweld correctly to how they train their soldiers to shoot.

I imagine this is because they train their soldiers to raise their weapons to the line of sight of their eyes.
You look at your Target and you bring your gun up to interface with your eyes and the target.

Many people INCORRECTLY adjust their head to line up sights, which is bad form.  Americans probably shoulder the weapon too low and cause this to happen with Tavor would be my thought.  I know that the American butt pad that came with my x95 caused me to do this sometimes, the manticore curved buttpad completely eliminated the issue for me.
Btw, the irons on the Tavor are perfect cowitness with AR optics.  The Israelis did their homework, and engineered this Gun for soldiers to use in combat.  They designed it exactly how it should be.

Regardless if your cheek weld is 2 feet high or 1 inch high, people need to bring the gun into their line of sight and not bring their line of sight into their gun.



If anyone thinks I'm full of s***, ask any state certified firearms instructor.
 


Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 18, 2017, 05:19:23 AM
Double post.

My last response got stuck inside the quote for some reason.  Tried to fix it but can't figure out why it's doing that.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: fatty on September 18, 2017, 08:57:31 AM
After watching an IDF training video, I can somewhat see how it can be a training issue.  I was taught to raise the rifle to your sight line (just like you mentioned), however I still could not see a clear sight picture even raising the butt end an inch or two above my shoulder.  Also didn't see a single video of the IDF using the iron sights... they were all using optics.

In any case, I think it all comes down to user preference at the end of the day.  I'd rather have the same cheek weld across most of my rifles.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: paulky_2000 on September 18, 2017, 02:44:01 PM
They work just fine for me.


Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: Leonitus on September 18, 2017, 10:09:59 PM


They engineered it perfectly to cheekweld correctly to how they train their soldiers to shoot.

I imagine this is because they train their soldiers to raise their weapons to the line of sight of their eyes.
You look at your Target and you bring your gun up to interface with your eyes and the target.

Many people INCORRECTLY adjust their head to line up sights, which is bad form.  Americans probably shoulder the weapon too low and cause this to happen with Tavor would be my thought.  I know that the American butt pad that came with my x95 caused me to do this sometimes, the manticore curved buttpad completely eliminated the issue for me.
Btw, the irons on the Tavor are perfect cowitness with AR optics.  The Israelis did their homework, and engineered this Gun for soldiers to use in combat.  They designed it exactly how it should be.

Regardless if your cheek weld is 2 feet high or 1 inch high, people need to bring the gun into their line of sight and not bring their line of sight into their gun.

If anyone thinks I'm full of s***, ask any state certified firearms instructor.
 


Spot on. The Tavor indexes perfectly for me.


Except the state certified instructor comment......I've met a few that were clueless.


Title: Re: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 18, 2017, 11:10:26 PM


They engineered it perfectly to cheekweld correctly to how they train their soldiers to shoot.

I imagine this is because they train their soldiers to raise their weapons to the line of sight of their eyes.
You look at your Target and you bring your gun up to interface with your eyes and the target.

Many people INCORRECTLY adjust their head to line up sights, which is bad form.  Americans probably shoulder the weapon too low and cause this to happen with Tavor would be my thought.  I know that the American butt pad that came with my x95 caused me to do this sometimes, the manticore curved buttpad completely eliminated the issue for me.
Btw, the irons on the Tavor are perfect cowitness with AR optics.  The Israelis did their homework, and engineered this Gun for soldiers to use in combat.  They designed it exactly how it should be.

Regardless if your cheek weld is 2 feet high or 1 inch high, people need to bring the gun into their line of sight and not bring their line of sight into their gun.

If anyone thinks I'm full of s***, ask any state certified firearms instructor.
 


Spot on. The Tavor indexes perfectly for me.


Except the state certified instructor comment......I've met a few that were clueless.

Lol, I don't doubt that at all  ;D

Also worth note, I believe the Israelis use the six points of contact grip as well, which is different from how we shoot.


Title: Re: BUIS Question
Post by: l2a3 on September 21, 2017, 10:35:54 AM
It seems  there is no relationship for having the buttstock against your shoulder and viewing the BUIS. For some of us it is one or the other, just like me and the Thompson SMG. If the buttstock is in the shoulder pocket the sights are too high, if I align my eye to the sights the buttstock is below my armpit.  No doubt it has to do a lot with the persons build and frame. I am 5'7' with 28 in arms, 18 inch throat with no or very little neck, and a 46-48 inch chest. My friends who are 5'10ish and skinny as a rail and have 32+ inch arms have no problem using the OEM sights when shouldered. So even using the Israeli 6 point stance is difficult for me to keep the support hand in the correct position, instead of grasping it; but it is a very solid position and I try to use it when possible.

Using the original X-95 OEM setup I needed a HARD cheek weld and  a slight cant to see the BUIS with the butt pad in/on my shoulder pocket. With the X-95 using a Gear Head long riser (3/8") and the La Rue M68 mount, that puts the M68 Aimpoint dot right where it should be, with the stock in or near the shoulder pocket, with either the factory butt pad or the Manticore curved pad, with or without plates;  but the Manticore curved pad feels better to me when shouldered,but it is 1/2 inch longer at the top than the OEM pad.  Just my 2 cents.