BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor & X-95 => Topic started by: Tj7 on September 11, 2017, 01:26:47 PM



Title: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Tj7 on September 11, 2017, 01:26:47 PM
Very interesting news from IWI. A total 180 from when the X95 was launched. They are looking towards the Tavor7 for their future platform it seems.

http://lauraburgess.com/iwi-us-phase-original-tavor-sar/ (http://lauraburgess.com/iwi-us-phase-original-tavor-sar/)


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RadScorpius on September 11, 2017, 01:41:29 PM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/016/593/vader-nooooo.jpg)


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Rick53 on September 11, 2017, 01:55:04 PM
Interesting they should chose the number 7 for the future Tavor : Yeah I get why : It's just a Prophetic number


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Gear Head on September 11, 2017, 01:58:11 PM
Interesting they should chose the number 7 for the future Tavor : Yeah I get why : It's just a Prophetic number

The Tavor 7 sticks with the nomenclature form the X95. The "X" means exchange or something and the "9" is 9mm with the "5" being 5.56. The Tavor & is 7.62 so....

But I hate to see the SAR go away. I still like it better than the X95.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: adoloris on September 11, 2017, 02:38:29 PM
Inevitable due to lagging sales and a redundant, legacy platform.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: boscoman on September 11, 2017, 04:31:34 PM
Yup, was just a matter of time. I still prefer shooting it over the X95 also.
Looking forward to the 7. Been waiting a long time for the 7.62 version.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Practicool on September 11, 2017, 07:15:49 PM
Still love my SAR, but understandable and even predictable.  I'm thinking that the Tavor 7 with a 5.56 conversion will be the next evolution that I'd probably be interested in.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Little_Dog on September 11, 2017, 07:25:12 PM
So much for a 300 blk out conversion >:(


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 11, 2017, 07:32:05 PM
If Israel isn't issuing their troops Tavor 7's then I am not interested.

I like the Tavor Sar and X95 because they were designed for war, and are issued to active military units.  Tavor 7 seems like a gun they are just designing for civilians.  If it is just being designed for the civilian market, then I highly doubt it will have to go through the same kind of testing and hold the same standards as their military issue weapons.  Also a 556 conversion for the Tavor 7 seems dumb because it has a 308 magwell.  The only advantage the Tavor 7 has over the X95 is the adjustable gas block.  If IWI threw in adjustable gas blocks for the X95 chambered in 5.56 they would have a real winner.  I think the 308 bullpup crowd is overblown, and 308 Tavors probably wouldn't sell anymore than the Tavor Sar in regards to numbers.  Seems like an overall waste of money for IWI.

Just my opinions.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 11, 2017, 07:34:05 PM
Maybe IWI thinks their money invested in SAR's would be better invested into designing the 308 bullpup. 


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Hivedr. on September 11, 2017, 09:27:58 PM
IWI USA does not actually build the Tavor they assemble it here. Their decision is more based on that IWI in Israel is discontinuing the production of the Tavor for either their military or export and instead focusing on production of the X95 for both the aforementioned. Sales in the US market are not enough to warrant the cost to keep a production line open. It's smart business and politics.   

The Tavor 7 is IWI reading the writing on the wall for the 5.56 rounds future as there are a fair number of smaller military & secret squirrel forces around the world looking at the short comings of the 5.56 over the last decade + in active combat. These same folks are looking to re visit the 308 for it's proven performance, but want it in a smaller, lighter, modern package and are finding the choices limited to maybe two or three rifles.

Like others I am sad to see it's production ending, but on the bright side this should keep the used prices on the higher side and keep it unique among the other rifles at the range. Knowing this I will now not be selling mine.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: boscoman on September 11, 2017, 09:52:12 PM
I will be very surprised if the IDF does not see the Tavor 7. They expressed an interest in a 7.62 rifle years ago & I doubt that the need has disappeared. Except for the Desert Eagle I can't think of a weapon that they have made hat the IDF, Boarder Guards, or LE in Israel hasn't been issued. I am also hard pressed that this system is just being designed for the US market. That is not in the style of IWI, we just don't matter that much to them. This rifle will also be a military export system for them I would assume.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Heavy on September 11, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
I remember hearing somwhere that the military aid money that was given to israel had to be spent on US items. Could making this rifle solely in the US be a clever way to make their own guns for free?


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Rastoff on September 12, 2017, 12:36:16 AM
This doesn't surprise me. The X95 has many improvements not the least of which was the trigger. It's just good manufacturing to discontinue an item that isn't selling.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: dushan on September 12, 2017, 02:09:46 AM
I remember hearing somwhere that the military aid money that was given to israel had to be spent on US items. Could making this rifle solely in the US be a clever way to make their own guns for free?

Could be

"The Defense Ministry is mulling manufacturing the planned new IDF armored personnel carrier - the Eitan - in the US and purchasing it with US military aid."

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-new-israeli-apc-may-be-produced-in-us-1001164794 (http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-new-israeli-apc-may-be-produced-in-us-1001164794)


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Verfed on September 12, 2017, 04:57:32 AM
I remember hearing somwhere that the military aid money that was given to israel had to be spent on US items. Could making this rifle solely in the US be a clever way to make their own guns for free?

In the past nearly 75% of all the military aid had to be spent in America, making it essentially a huge tax-payer subsidy of American military industries. That's changed since 2016 but apparently most of the money will still end up being spent in America, especially since Israel has gotten around that limitation, of spending the money in America, by buying American companies and moving their companies to the US.

"Some of Israel's bigger contractors own smaller American companies, which would allow Israel to spend the money in the United States, as agreed upon in the deal, while still counting on the expertise and experience of Israeli firms. The country's defense giant, Elbit Systems, for example, has a wholly owned subsidiary based in Fort Worth, Texas.

Other Israeli defense companies may soon look to buy smaller American defense contractors as well. "The big contractors in Israel will follow Elbit's methods and establish U.S. subsidiaries to work through," https://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/15/big-us-military-aid-package-to-israel-has-strings-attached.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/15/big-us-military-aid-package-to-israel-has-strings-attached.html)


Title: Re:
Post by: tattooo on September 12, 2017, 03:32:26 PM
I prefer the original SAR myself, sad they wont produce it even if in limited numbers.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 12, 2017, 04:13:45 PM
Wow, learned some pretty interesting things in this thread.  Thanks for sharing guys.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: ParanoidMedic on September 12, 2017, 05:34:32 PM
A Tavor in 7.62 x 39 would be pretty sweet in my book and better ballistics to the 556


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: xdmikey on September 12, 2017, 08:03:37 PM
I've never been known to be on tHe cutting edge of anything but after installing a delrin tav-d trigger pack I may have to buy a third Tavor just so I have enough!


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 12, 2017, 08:18:04 PM
A Tavor in 7.62 x 39 would be pretty sweet in my book and better ballistics to the 556

Well the problem is for the Tavor to take AK mags would be a huge redesign, and there aren't many AR style mags that are known for reliably feeding 7.62x39.   Since IWI makes a Tavor in 300BLK that can be reliably fed while maintaining similar ballistics to 7.62x39, I highly doubt they see any need for it.

In regards to the caliber being more effective.. I think it's really apples and oranges.


In terms of energy generated from a 16'' barrel yes 7.62x39 generates more energy... but

In regards to trajectory 5.56 shoots flatter, and is more accurate than 7.62x39 by a huge margin.

Each caliber has an edge is one regard.   x39 has better barrier penetration, and 223 has a flatter trajectory.  So I have a hard time saying one is superior to the other in every regard, it's really apples and oranges.



With all that said, I have thousands of rounds of both calibers.  I prefer 5.56 right now because I can hand load bonded ammo for 20-25 cents per round  ;D ... But I have no intention of ever getting rid of my AK's or the thousands of rounds of laquer coated and sealed 7.62x39 ammo sitting in my closet...  Still have some sealed spam cans too  ;D


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Beach Bill on September 12, 2017, 09:16:15 PM
I am another who is not surprised by IWI's decision to phase out production of the original Tavor. Disappointed, but not surprised. I am glad that have my three Tavors. My only concern is IWI continuing to offer repair/replacement parts for the Tavor. That will not be a problem in the near-term.

The X95 offers a number of worthwhile improvements over the Tavor, especially for those shooters making the transition from an AR platform. I could see an X95 sometime in my future.

Regarding the Tavor 7, I am pleased to see IWI offering this 308 to those who are interested. Like RabbitSlayer and several others have said, I am not sufficiently convinced about buying a Tavor 7 without seeing it deployed in some military units (and preferably in the IDF). I will wait and see. My PWS 308 is doing a good job filling that role time for the time being.

Mission accomplished, original Tavor. Job well done.


Title: Re:
Post by: Tvfreakarms on September 13, 2017, 08:20:10 AM
Supposedly an active Israeli soldier who is on a FB group said, it seems the tavor 7 is just for the civilian market

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Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: PattonWasRight on September 13, 2017, 11:06:29 AM
It's just the progression of things

That said, look at what Gen 1 Glocks are selling for ... thousands of dollars.

I for one embrace owning the "original" battle rifle


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: unkashawn on September 13, 2017, 11:23:48 AM
Perhaps the original SAR will increase in resale value similar to the FS2000 when FN discontinued importing that rifle. Regardless, I prefer the original SAR and will clutch tightly onto mine. :)


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: beast556 on September 13, 2017, 01:19:02 PM
That sucks, I will never part with my tavor sar. Hope we will still be able to get spare parts. 


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: PattonWasRight on September 13, 2017, 02:16:47 PM
That sucks, I will never part with my tavor sar. Hope we will still be able to get spare parts. 
They do sell a spare parts kit on their website, I have one and suggest getting one for peace of mind. $50ish IIRC


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: PattonWasRight on September 13, 2017, 02:25:37 PM
Spare nuts & bolts https://iwi.us/product/tavor-sar-screwsnutswashers-pack/

The one you definitely want https://iwi.us/product/tavor-singledouble-ejector-bolt-parts-kit-5-56-nato/


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: madmike262 on September 13, 2017, 03:00:58 PM
Hope you will still be able to get parts.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: PattonWasRight on September 13, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Hope you will still be able to get parts.
See immediately above


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Richard W. on September 13, 2017, 03:26:28 PM
Maybe this will help the SAR resale market.

Not looking to sell mine in my lifetime, though.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 13, 2017, 04:31:41 PM
Personally I prefer the x95 ...
However, I think the SAR has a more reliable mag release.

I think IWI is making a huge mistake by stopping production of SAR... Styer still makes old school Augs, and people still buy them.

I think SAR sales would be at least double Tavor 7 sales.  Sure the 308 Tavor might have many sales for the first year, but in the long run more people shoot 5.56 and SAR sales would be profoundly higher than Tavor 7 sales.  Also, if the Tavor 7 is only for civilian market, hardly anyone is going to want it.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: BigDave76 on September 13, 2017, 04:41:13 PM
Personally I prefer the x95 ...
However, I think the SAR has a more reliable mag release.

I think IWI is making a huge mistake by stopping production of SAR... Styer still makes old school Augs, and people still buy them.

I think SAR sales would be at least double Tavor 7 sales.  Sure the 308 Tavor might have many sales for the first year, but in the long run more people shoot 5.56 and SAR sales would be profoundly higher than Tavor 7 sales.  Also, if the Tavor 7 is only for civilian market, hardly anyone is going to want it.


Something they may do... as they have done with the X95, is offer multiple calibers for the Tavor7. X95 is supposed to stand for 9mm, 5.56, (5.45 hope) but they still went ahead and made a 300 blackout system for it.

I think IWI is trying to compete against the MDR. There are a lot of similar features between the 2. Just as the MDR features mag release similarities with the Tavors, the Tavor7 is looking to have a similar charging system where you can lock the bolt back HK style. So if they're willing to "copy" that feature, they're also likely wanting to copy the promised features of the MDR, which is multi-caliber.

The MDR has a .308 magwell, so to fit in 5.56/300 or 9mm your magwell is already large enough and you can then just put a well insert in there. The current Tavors cannot do .308, because their mag wells are not large enough. With the Tavor7, though, it will have a .308 magwell, and likely be able to take a 5.56/300/9 barrel in the future alongside of a magwell insert.


Honestly I think they're making a great contender to the MDR here with the Tavor7. Especially if it sells for cheaper than an MDR.


Title: Re: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Tvfreakarms on September 14, 2017, 02:52:34 PM
Personally I prefer the x95 ...
However, I think the SAR has a more reliable mag release.

I think IWI is making a huge mistake by stopping production of SAR... Styer still makes old school Augs, and people still buy them.

I think SAR sales would be at least double Tavor 7 sales.  Sure the 308 Tavor might have many sales for the first year, but in the long run more people shoot 5.56 and SAR sales would be profoundly higher than Tavor 7 sales.  Also, if the Tavor 7 is only for civilian market, hardly anyone is going to want it.


Something they may do... as they have done with the X95, is offer multiple calibers for the Tavor7. X95 is supposed to stand for 9mm, 5.56, (5.45 hope) but they still went ahead and made a 300 blackout system for it.

I think IWI is trying to compete against the MDR. There are a lot of similar features between the 2. Just as the MDR features mag release similarities with the Tavors, the Tavor7 is looking to have a similar charging system where you can lock the bolt back HK style. So if they're willing to "copy" that feature, they're also likely wanting to copy the promised features of the MDR, which is multi-caliber.

The MDR has a .308 magwell, so to fit in 5.56/300 or 9mm your magwell is already large enough and you can then just put a well insert in there. The current Tavors cannot do .308, because their mag wells are not large enough. With the Tavor7, though, it will have a .308 magwell, and likely be able to take a 5.56/300/9 barrel in the future alongside of a magwell insert.


Honestly I think they're making a great contender to the MDR here with the Tavor7. Especially if it sells for cheaper than an MDR.
Makes sense for them to do what MDR is doing.
That way if people want to shot 556 out of their tavor 7, or smaller calibers,  all u need is the kit and magwell insert to accommodate for the smaller magwell.

You might be right for sure.  I didn't think about.
Very solid point


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Title: Re: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Tvfreakarms on September 14, 2017, 02:53:27 PM
Spare nuts & bolts https://iwi.us/product/tavor-sar-screwsnutswashers-pack/

The one you definitely want https://iwi.us/product/tavor-singledouble-ejector-bolt-parts-kit-5-56-nato/
What other spare parts do u suggest?
Or are these about it,  other than a spare barrel if one shoots out the other

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Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: tavor hollow on September 15, 2017, 04:40:20 AM
Screw iwi they are ****'s.


*** WARNING Issued!  This will not be tolerated.  ***


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 15, 2017, 05:20:09 AM
Screw iwi they are ****'s.

I think that is the last thing they would be, plus I'm sure they'll still support it to a degree, but they want to move onto other things. If you are really so distraught by it, buy spare parts that may not remain in production.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Leonitus on September 15, 2017, 06:57:17 AM
Screw iwi they are ****'s.

How did you come up with this "intelligent response"?

Seems you are a bit butt hurt over the decision to drop the SAR line? It's happened with many weapons over the years. Look at the M1 Garand. Been out of military production for decades, still VERY strong with support.

Seems you're trolling just to stir a bucket. Why not actually contribute with some useful conversation?


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: tavor hollow on September 15, 2017, 07:29:13 AM
I believe they are turning their back on the customers. I didn't have to think very hard to come up with the worst thing to call them to show my displeasure. Besides I'm ***** we get called **** everyday.I'm pissed at iwi ill get over it but not now.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 15, 2017, 07:40:25 AM
I believe they are turning their back on the customers. I didn't have to think very hard to come up with the worst thing to call them to show my displeasure. Besides I'm ***** we get called **** everyday.I'm pissed at iwi ill get over it but not now.

You may believe that, but there was a decent reason they came out with the X-95 and are replacing the SAR. It is an easier transition for AR enthusiasts to embrace bullpups. You make it sound like the guys at IWI kicked your dog and burnt up your truck, but all they are doing is trimming their production line to make space for a new design.

And being ***** is a piss-poor reason to just blabber **** about things you disagree with.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: RadScorpius on September 15, 2017, 10:09:01 AM
The oldest rule of the internet, every online discussion given enough time and participates will result in someone form or ****sm or Anti-Semitism.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: BigDave76 on September 15, 2017, 10:16:07 AM
Nah the **** and Antisemitism seems to be a recent trend.

I always thought the oldest rule on the internet was: nobody knows who you are on the internet. Which is probably the reason for... well just about everything on the internet. Especially rule 34.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Leonitus on September 15, 2017, 11:05:39 AM
I believe they are turning their back on the customers. I didn't have to think very hard to come up with the worst thing to call them to show my displeasure. Besides I'm ***** we get called **** everyday.I'm pissed at iwi ill get over it but not now.

How is it they are "turning their back on the customers"?

Please do explain.....

If your idea is that they are discontinuing, what most enthusiasts feel is an outdated model, I find that to be a poor excuse for your anger and hate.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: tavor hollow on September 15, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
The x95 is light but it feels flimsy . I have heard to many things about function problems and lack of internal stability and thats in 5.56 whats going to happen with 7.62.  If these things are not true then there are a lot of story tellers here. Time will tell, but yea I'm upset. what's wrong with that are you trying to police my opinion like antifa? Everybody's so apologetic these days political correctness is sinking into the second amendment.  Anyways its Friday and I'm free for 2 days away from the world.I'm more of a separatist I don't like anybody equally.


*** WARNING sent for a previous post, but this post proves trolling.   :investigate "Light" and "Flimsy", and "I have heard"  :chin  ***


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Leonitus on September 15, 2017, 03:04:07 PM
Wow......


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Rastoff on September 16, 2017, 12:48:11 AM
Screw iwi they are ****'s.
The comment made by this member is unbelievably offensive. To call a Jewish manufacturer a **** is beneath contempt. The fact that you're upset they're discontinuing your favorite thing is no excuse to be an ass.

Models are made, improved upon and discontinued. That's business. If IWI were to continue making a product that is not selling, they'd go out of business and you'd still not be able to get any parts.


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: BoulderTroll on September 16, 2017, 03:20:00 AM
The x95 is light but it feels flimsy . I have heard to many things about function problems and lack of internal stability and thats in 5.56 whats going to happen with 7.62.  If these things are not true then there are a lot of story tellers here. Time will tell, but yea I'm upset. what's wrong with that are you trying to police my opinion like antifa? Everybody's so apologetic these days political correctness is sinking into the second amendment.  Anyways its Friday and I'm free for 2 days away from the world.I'm more of a separatist I don't like anybody equally.

I think PC stuff has risen to a disgusting level, and I love shows like The Office/ South Park, etc., that make fun of the easily offended-PC crowd.

So coming from this mindset, calling an Israeli weapon manufacturer "****", is the biggest douchebag move I've seen on the internet in a very long time.  No amount of rationalization or argument will change that.  It's an easy scapegoat to say people are trying to be the thought police, but a stand-up, civilized human would just admit they made an ignorant comment, and apologize.  Wow.  I'm a freedom loving, 2nd Amendment shouting, conservative...and comments like yours make me wish I were a liberal.  In my line of work, if my employer found out I'd made that comment on an Internet forum, I'd be fired immediately.  


Title: Re: IWI to cease Tavor SAR production.
Post by: Sgt_P on September 16, 2017, 08:02:59 AM
Thread locked!

 :hijacked