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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 7n6 on August 29, 2017, 11:12:51 AM



Title: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 29, 2017, 11:12:51 AM
I've watched all the torture test videos and can critique what went wrong with each. Most of the "sand test" videos featuring AK's exploit the AK's lack of a sealed area around the selector and will show that the AR is a sealed design. Which is fine- it shows that weakness for the AK but what it fails to show further is the weakness of the AR once it is compromised. Everyone wants to shovel sand over an AK but then say look it won't fire- because the hammer can't reset. Allow the hammer to reset by cycling the action a few times- and it will run with a half a cup of sand back there. The point, that even with all our advances today in technology it would be nice to have a truly reliable alternative to the AK especially one that offers modern ergonomics. Essentially a modern firearm should be able to function once compromised with debris and should be able to pass an over the beach test. These two factors are the benchmark for what I believe personally to be the very minimum qualifications of a serious firearm relegating everything else to range duty use only.


"Swamp OTB Test" with an AR, Tavor, and an AK- only the AK keeps going;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9lZO74YCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9lZO74YCE)

AK 74 filled with sand, with one note- they made sure the hammer could reset before firing;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hFZ7Jt2hQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hFZ7Jt2hQ)

AK firing underwater;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZGDYN81-3c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZGDYN81-3c)




Here are what I believe to be the only modern designs that might come close to that level of reliability, the 416 and the Steyr AUG. One note, some piston AR's might also come close as the 416 as well but currently the 416 is the overall standard for a piston AR. Now between the 416 and AUG, I don't think the 416 would handle dust as well once compromised because it is still an AR at heart and as such I think the AUG to be a better rifle;


AUG OTB test;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c-FzU-sa9Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c-FzU-sa9Y)

AUG dust test;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xabG5leX68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xabG5leX68)

HK416 firing underwater;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y)




Bottom line, the field of modern weapons that are as reliable and durable as the AK are few and far between. We're talking less than a handful of modern designs that can even handle extreme environments as well as the AK can nearly seventy years after it's first debut. However those weapons might not be able handle certain drop tests or sand tests as well as the AK. Sure modern designs are more ergonomic, a little more accurate, maybe offer some nice optic mounting points but they aren't ultimately reliabile. Simply it would be nice if those designing modern weapons took some notes and stopped over engineering today's firearms. We could very well face another situation like the Chosin Reservoir, where troops were in the field for three weeks in sub zero temperatures cut off from supplies or evacuation where having to remove gloves to field strip and maintain a firearm could cost them their fingers. We haven't fought a WWII or Korea style conflict since that time and essentially- we need to design firearms that could handle themselves well in that environment should our troops ever be forced to fight like that again.

Just my .02,


7n6








  




Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: bravo619 on August 29, 2017, 11:36:37 AM
What's your point? Lol


45acp... turning human garbage into useful fertilizer since 1911


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 29, 2017, 12:32:30 PM
What's your point? Lol





Exactly what it says; we field unreliable, ammo sensitive, environmentally sensitive firearms. With all our advances in technology and engineering- you'd think that seventy years after the Kalashnikov debut that we could design an equally robust and reliable rifle. We have not. The basis of that is a weapon that can fire underwater, survive a thirty foot drop onto concrete, can fire compromised with debris, doesn't require extreme amount of maintenance to function, easily broken down with gloved hands for detailing, and is over gassed such that it isn't ammo or debris sensitive. With all our advances in technology we still haven't built anything that is on par. Some outdated Soviet/German WWII tech that is better overall in extreme environmental conditions than anything we field today. The AUG and 416 are a step in the right direction but they aren't as robust nor easily broken down to clear malfunctions- especially with gloved hands. Even the newest AR18 type designs like the SCAR or B&T rifles are held together with machine screws and locktight- it's a joke.


7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: BullpupT on August 29, 2017, 01:25:46 PM
Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.




Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 29, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
Reliability is a balancing act between many factors. In the west we value tighter fitting parts that enhance accuracy and in turn greater hit probability more so over lose fitting parts that enhance reliability. Just look at all the b****ing that goes on about any newer rifle. The first thing folks want to know is it an MOA shooting rifle with surplus ammo followed closely by trigger pull weight and feel followed by build quality and how tight the parts fit and then maybe how reliable it is.   

A number of "big name" government and industry studies show the main issue fighting rifles have to over come is DUST ingestion when firing, not sand and mud clogging the action, Goggle it for yourself if you do not believe me. In this area newer western rifle designs like the X95/Tavor, SCAR, AXR, BREN 805, 416 and G36 perform excellently and on par to the AK type rifles. Even the DI AR does well when oiled correctly and used with Pmags. The difference is the western designs maintain higher levels of accuracy/hit probability. 

The AK designs earned their mythical hard hitting reliability at a time when the west was struggling with rushing a new relatively untested rifle (cough cough 1960s M16) into action. Would the AK have gotten the reputation had the west fielded (for a longer time) against it rifles like the M14, FAL or G3. Personally I think the
reputation would be more in it being lighter than in it's vastly superior hard hitting reliability.

Just my .02 as I have experienced and read history.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: bravo619 on August 29, 2017, 03:57:35 PM
What's your point? Lol





Exactly what it says; we field unreliable, ammo sensitive, environmentally sensitive firearms. With all our advances in technology and engineering- you'd think that seventy years after the Kalashnikov debut that we could design an equally robust and reliable rifle. We have not. The basis of that is a weapon that can fire underwater, survive a thirty foot drop onto concrete, can fire compromised with debris, doesn't require extreme amount of maintenance to function, easily broken down with gloved hands for detailing, and is over gassed such that it isn't ammo or debris sensitive. With all our advances in technology we still haven't built anything that is on par. Some outdated Soviet/German WWII tech that is better overall in extreme environmental conditions than anything we field today. The AUG and 416 are a step in the right direction but they aren't as robust nor easily broken down to clear malfunctions- especially with gloved hands. Even the newest AR18 type designs like the SCAR or B&T rifles are held together with machine screws and locktight- it's a joke.


7n6  
I gotcha, just livening up the party 😀


45acp... turning human garbage into useful fertilizer since 1911


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 29, 2017, 04:57:45 PM
Western Civilization has been the birthplace of tons of historical firearms.  Russia has the AK, and that is basically it.  We have been making awesome things for the past 200 years.

As a long time AK fanboy, researcher, and collector I would like to comment on this subject.
I often used to polish my AK's while watching red dawn, used to call AR15s poodle shooters, etc.  I was a cliche AK guy who used to think that nothing would ever replace my AK's.  However, I have expanded and learned much since those days.

The reliability of the AK is a bit of a double edge sword. 
It has loose tolerances that allows it to easily function with debris inside the receiver, and they are often somewhat overgassed.  The throat lead in the chamber is usually very large ( where the rifling actually starts from the chamber ), which aid's in reliability... but..All these things and more have a negative influence on accuracy.
The fixed ejector also is great, blasts brass away.  The calibers they are designed for have steep should angles which aids in feeding and extraction.  Their Magazines are the staple of their reliable function, the Mags are overbuilt as hell.
Etc

If you read my Tavor posts, you will see I advocate that it is an accurate weapon, but you will never see me say that about any of my AK's.  I love my AK's, they are the most reliable guns I own, but in the real world they are roughly 4 MOA guns AT BEST.  People who say they are more accurate, even Rob Ski are cherry picking groups.  I have shot enough to know that AK's really don't shoot better than minute of bad guy out to maybe 250 yards effectively.  I have shot tens of thousands of rounds out of AK's, and I do know what I am talking about.  Can you shoot further than 250 yards?  Yes, but the groups are way bigger, and don't hold a candle to other guns.  Even AK74's aren't that accurate.  I have owned an AK from basically every country that has made them, and never have I got better than a consistent 4-5 MOA.  Sure maybe a 3'' group here or there, but that doesn't change the fact most groups were way bigger than that. 
On the other hand, my Tavor, Sig 550, and AR15s get an easy 1-2.5 MOA with factory ammo.   It is far easier to shoot targets at 100 yards and beyond with the plethora of more accurate weapons, sorry but it is true.  The accurate enough AK still doesn't hit a target as easily as a more accurate weapon, it's just science.

Ak's are great guns, but in my mind they are best for close range stuff, that is what they were designed for, and I think there are better guns out there now for that roll.  My Tavor is better for CQB, and better for long range.  I know it sounds harsh, but the day of AK's is dying.
No more good imports besides WASRs are coming into the USA.  5.45 is completely screwed, and even 7.62x39 rifles are in extremely limited sales.  American made AK's are pieces of sh!t that blow up in peoples faces.  Good AK's cost way more than good AR's now.   AK's are no longer cost effective, they are inaccurate, and they are in short supply.  Good luck ever fixing an AK properly if you don't have a machine shop.  AK's have inferior iron signs, inferior optics mounting, no LRBO, etc.   Yes, they are amazing guns that will just keep on shooting, but they are lacking in so many areas, and yet I am still an AK fanboy!... I will never sell my AK's, but I have other guns that I hold to a higher candle now.  At the end of the day, I would rather grab one of my other piston driven guns over an AK if the zombies came.  You need accuracy to get head shots ;)

AK's are pretty much ancient tech these days.  YES they are great guns, but lets be real, we have a plethora of more advanced just as reliable weapons available today.


Technology is picking up, we are starting to do smart things like flute the chambers to aid in extraction, we are coming up with better bolt designs, and other things.  The average Joe has the worlds information at his fingertips with the internet.  The average Joe knows how to give his AR the proper dwell time using buffers, port size, and dwell time.  This is stuff that was largely unknown to most gun guys just a few decades ago.

As cringy as it is to say, if you maintain your AR's, they will be reliable.  Maybe you can't put a sandwich in the FCG and blow through a mag without a failure like an AK, but AR's are still great, and on of the best things about them is that anyone can work on or build one. 

In the current market, for the money it costs to get a good AK ( 1000$+ ), you can get a plethora of state of the art weaponry.  As red blooded educated americans, it is easy to get AR's maintain them, and keep spare parts.





As a long time AK fanboy, I am here to say the AK is over rated!  There are better guns out there these days.   Also, the AR is a great weapon, it is better and more advanced than the AK in every single way besides reliability.  But anyone who cleans their guns won't have a problem with a well built AR... And guess what, I've had plenty of bad built AK's from comblock countries that jammed like crazy too!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 29, 2017, 05:11:55 PM
btw.

youtube torture test videos are usually ******ed. 

There are plenty of youtube videos that make AK's look invincible.. Then there are also tons of videos that make the AR look more reliable.

Personally, I trust my first hand use of both weapons more than any youtube video.  Either an AR or an AK will function just fine so long as it was properly built.

The guys who are a complete fanboy of only the AK or only the AR are really just being ass holes defending their purchases.  I own both AR and AK, and many of them; I also own a ton of other completely different types of guns.

  There are tons of great guns out there, and I'm glad I hopped off the AK dick riding train a while ago, because now I really appreciate and enjoy using many different types of weapons.  I have seen just as many Jams in AK's as I have in AR's.  But either gun an AK or an AR will shoot very well if built properly, and maintained.  Even AK's need to be maintained.
 A rusty somoli pirate AK might shoot, but it wont group better than a foot at 100 yards, and it wouldn't be able to make it through a mag without tripping up.




Nothing personal OP


I just get sick of  AUG guys who diss Tavors, AK guys that diss AR's, AR guys that diss AK's, 1911 guys that diss glocks, etc.

They are all f-ing great guns.  They have all been used in mass warfare with great results, if they were as problomatic as internet commandos claim, then we would all be fukd.
Most people that talk about guns on the internet will never get in a gun fight.  If AR's sucked so bad, then our military, and 99% of our police wouldn't be using them.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 29, 2017, 09:09:48 PM
Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  The real question you need to ask is "What are the metrics that we are going to use to measure reliability?"  In your monologue you pretty much defeated your argument when you started making exceptions for the AK patter rifle, especially when various rifles were tested using the same test procedure and the only ones that I remember (IIRC) performing as they should were the AR-15 and the MAS 49/56, though IIRC the MAS did have a hiccup or two. 

If you want published testing criteria, then why not do what Switzerland did before they adopted the SIG-550 and -551?  I'll post the link below.  The SIG-55x series (not the abortions that SIG-Sauer made in the US recently, but the actual Swiss produced rifles) is an AK at its core and is also quite accurate.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/ (http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/)

The AR pattern rifle is fine; it is reliable, accurate, and durable.  So too are the FAL, G-3, and FNC to name three that were widely adopted around the world. 

Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 29, 2017, 09:27:18 PM
^

The Sig 550 series is everything the AK and AR should have been in my opinion.
Ak reliability with all the Pluses of the AR.  It is a beast of a weapon, and a precision instrument at the same time. 
As for the Over the beach testing, The Tavor, and many other rifles pass that test as well... Which I personally don't think is that relevant of a test.  Call me crazy, but if any of my guns go underwater I would drain them out, even an AK.  Pretty sure the added pressure of cycling while filled with water destroys barrels and internals even if it cycles, it is cycling with a massive amount of extra pressure.  If the over the beach tests were as relevant as some think, then I doubt our Navy would use AR's at all.
I was taught as a kid to never shoot any gun with any obstruction in the barrel, which includes water and oil.


I used to hate a lot on AR's mainly because of crap I read on the internet, then once I actually started really using them in my personal life and at work I found them to be very reliable.  Every AR I have personally owned has ran 100%.
Every type of gun has factory lemons.


I like the bullpup forum because I feel the majority of members here aren't as narrow minded about guns.  AK forums, and AR forums tend to have a group mentality that both think that their gun is the end all be all gold standard of weapon system.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 29, 2017, 09:43:42 PM
Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.





I have AK's in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62- all of them run better than any other rifles I've owned. I'm just tired of the trade off and can't understand why we can't design something in the modern world equally reliable and robust. I think the AUG is close, they proofed barrels by shooting squib loads with live rounds.



Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  


I haven't personally seen anything equally reliable but some are close. This whole thing started for me personally because I reached a point in my collection where I have all these different rifles of all types- and would love to downsize, consolidate etc. However it feels like a trade off.


7n6  




Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: ttarp on August 29, 2017, 11:07:07 PM
Well I think the G3 was fairly close to the AK in reliability, but that design isn't significantly newer than the AK, is pretty hefty, and definitely improves on AK ergos's, but doesn't keep up with newer designs in that respect.  Aren't the new Galil ACE rifles supposed to be all your asking for?  How about the FNC?(not that we can get them)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 29, 2017, 11:57:45 PM
Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.





I have AK's in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62- all of them run better than any other rifles I've owned. I'm just tired of the trade off and can't understand why we can't design something in the modern world equally reliable and robust. I think the AUG is close, they proofed barrels by shooting squib loads with live rounds.



Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  


I haven't personally seen anything equally reliable but some are close. This whole thing started for me personally because I reached a point in my collection where I have all these different rifles of all types- and would love to downsize, consolidate etc. However it feels like a trade off.


7n6  




What is acceptable reliability to you? In what environment the desert, jungle, arctic, urban, woodland, mountainous, open flat lands? No rifle of the newer generation of designs is 100% reliable every time in all. Each design has it's weakness including the AK pattern rifles.

In recent conflicts the AK has NOT out performed the current NATO rifles, in fact the current NATO rifles have been outperforming the AK in all but terminal ballistics at ranges out to 300 meters (that is the real
argument IMO). This is why the bad guys have learned to stay beyond 300 meters when engaging Western forces. Any closer and it's lights out because the accuracy of the NATO rifles with their excellent optics (ACOG, Aimpoint, Eotech, Elcan) trumps any minor reliability advantages the AK pattern rifles might still have.

This is not the 60s or even the late 80s. Modern rifles have come a long ways and the improvements made over the decades since the AK got it mythical reputation for reliability have given us rifles that are
easily the match for them in the real non mythical world of life and death.

Now all that said don't get me wrong I have owned AKs since the mid 80s and admire the simple design and 7.62x39 round, but having shot and trained with nearly every current NATO rifle, the AK would be next to the last rifle I would grab if going into harms way again (the last rifle would be the L85/SA80 it has the worst ergonomics of all the NATO rifles). In a perfect world we would be using a hybrid of the AK bolt, western ergonomics, something larger than a 6mm bullet with the inherent accuracy of a mil spec
M4/16. Wait, would that be a 300 Blackout Tavor/X95.

Sadly the biggest complaint from NATO forces IS NOT in the reliability of their weapons in combat it is the lack of effectiveness of the standard NATO M855/SS109 rounds being used.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 12:42:27 AM
I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 30, 2017, 12:51:19 AM
I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6
I hope you don't take this negatively, but it honestly sounds like nothing will ever get you away from that impression. Whenever someone raises a valid point, you subvert it with an observance of your own. Whether in regards to accuracy or reliability, there is always something to bring up that keeps the AK held in high regard.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 30, 2017, 01:43:30 AM
I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6

Sounds like you are looking for a Sig556 Classic or the new Galil ACE. Both AK at heat but with western ergonomics. Paired with quality magazines and presto you have what you are looking for.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 02:17:45 AM
Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 02:19:12 AM
Op if you like aks by all means keep using them.  Nobody is telling you not to.  However everyone gave you good points you seemed to just ignore.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 02:22:28 AM


Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.

This.

This is also the reason I can't stand so many gun forums.

"Muh gun is da best and everything else sucks because I need to justify the thousands of dollars I invested in this setup derp " 
That is the mentality of basically every Ak and Ar specific gun forum.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 02:37:41 AM
Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.


Currently own AR's, AUG's, HK 91's, FAL's, an M1A, AK's in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39. I have owned SIG 55x series and SCAR's. Even after owning all that stuff- I still drink the Red Dawn coolaid I guess.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 02:56:15 AM
Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.




Currently own AR's, AUG's, HK 91's, FAL's, an M1A, AK's in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39. I have owned SIG 55x series and SCAR's. Even after owning all that stuff- I still drink the Red Dawn coolaid I guess.


7n6

Well.  Nothing wrong with AKs if you like them, do what makes you happy man that's all that matters. 

If you haven't tried the Tavors, might want to give them a hard look, I personally prefer them over Aug by a large margin.  But ill I'll never knock on guys for loving Augs, they are great guns.  I prefer the Tavor bolt, firing pin, trigger group, full size rail, and a few other things.  But that's just my opinion. 


Your OP was asking why western countries never made any thing as reliable as an AK.  Several members mentioned several guns that are as reliable as AKs.
I feel even more confidence with my Tavor than my Aks to be honest.  But we all have our own opinions. And what I think really doesnt matter for others.

Google Tavor over the beach test if that is the stuff that interests you.
Shoot what you like, and spend your money however you want.


I'm still an AK fanboy at heart, but I just think AKs are pretty rough and crude, there are more refined weapons out there that fit my wants and needs.

I'll never knock a guy for liking AKs, but to ignore the fact there are tons of guns just as good if not better than aks would be foolish.

Maybe you seek a been 805.


Years ago I used to only rock AKs with iron sights. And I thought everything else was gay. 

Now I throw 1-4 optics on everything and hand load my own ammo. 
Right now I'm reloading federal fusion bullets into 223 cases for 25 cents a round.  My Tavor has a full mag of those hand loads in it ;D


Do what makes you happy man, that's all that matters at the end of the day!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 03:08:28 AM
Just fwiw
I would be wary of any YouTube adverse conditions test videos.  They have no scientific method, no controls, it's just dudes out throwing guns in mud and stuff.  Fun stuff to watch, but they hold no scientific value. 
For every video showing the ak to be superior in a mud test, there are one or two that show the AR to be superior in mud.

Then all the mouth breathers watch the videos and say s*** like
" this is why the AR15 is the superior weapon" or " this is why the AK is the superior weapon"

Meanwhile they are commenting on bubbas video, while bubba thinks he I being scientifical an sheeit.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 30, 2017, 03:13:45 AM
Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.


Currently own AR's, AUG's, HK 91's, FAL's, an M1A, AK's in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39. I have owned SIG 55x series and SCAR's. Even after owning all that stuff- I still drink the Red Dawn coolaid I guess.


7n6

Looks like you will be happy with the Galil ACE then. It is an AK at heart with many of the best features from the rifles you listed above, mostly being 308/556 with ambidextrous controls and a left side charging handle.  I have a good deal of time on the old Micro Galil that is similar to the new ACE in many respects. If the new ACE is even close to the micro in overall feel and build quality it will be a winner. It should provide you with what you are looking for. Or you could try an X95 which is fairly different from the AUG in design and IMO having owned AUGs for 30 years the X95 is a far more durable and inherently more reliable as it draws inspiration in its 3 lug bolt head design from the AK vs the AUG multi lug design from the AR. It is well known the AR style lugs are more sensitive to "foreign matter"  than the AK 3 lug
style.

Good luck on your quest.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: BigDave76 on August 30, 2017, 07:07:28 AM
I just stopped by to say that Youtube tests tend to be extremely biased. I'm not saying that the AK isn't a reliable weapon, I'm just saying be wary.
The worst example I have for you is InRangeTV's Tavor, AR and AK "Mud Tests".

In the videos, he covers the Tavor's ejection port with mud, hardly shakes it off and then tries to fire it (doesn't do any forward assist either).
For the AK he doesn't do a ton for it either or do what most people would do with an AK (which is pop the dust cover and shake it out for 2 seconds).
For his AR test after he muds it, he gives it shaken baby syndrome, and also wipes the ejection port clean in the second test before firing.

So there are people like that out there.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 30, 2017, 07:14:13 AM
I just stopped by to say that Youtube tests tend to be extremely biased. I'm not saying that the AK isn't a reliable weapon, I'm just saying be wary.
The worst example I have for you is InRangeTV's Tavor, AR and AK "Mud Tests".

In the videos, he covers the Tavor's ejection port with mud, hardly shakes it off and then tries to fire it (doesn't do any forward assist either).
For the AK he doesn't do a ton for it either or do what most people would do with an AK (which is pop the dust cover and shake it out for 2 seconds).
For his AR test after he muds it, he gives it shaken baby syndrome, and also wipes the ejection port clean in the second test before firing.

So there are people like that out there.
Those videos are the only things that shake my faith in Gun Jesus.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: BigDave76 on August 30, 2017, 07:16:46 AM
Yeah like all the Forgotten Weapons stuff is great and really cool.... but damn if watching those "tests" doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 30, 2017, 12:26:57 PM


Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.

This.

This is also the reason I can't stand so many gun forums.

"Muh gun is da best and everything else sucks because I need to justify the thousands of dollars I invested in this setup derp " 
That is the mentality of basically every Ak and Ar specific gun forum.

Very well put!  In 2002 I decided that I just had to have a SIG-550 to the point where over the span of about three weeks I obsessively followed every lead, no matter how obscure, to locate one of the 600 or so that had been imported prior to Bush 41 signing the 1989 import ban.  I learned from past sales and talking with buyers and sellers that the going price for one was ~$8500, give or take depending on condition.  When I found a 550-2 (even rarer as it had the 1:7 barrel) that was single owner in mint condition with less than one magazine fired through it for $8600 delivered, I jumped on it like a terrier on a rat.

Mind you, in all of this I had never actually *handled* a 550 before I picked it up at my dealer's shop. 

The reality, to me, didn't match the hype and billing, IMO...  It was exceptionally muzzle heavy; take a 20" box stock AR-15 and add about two and half pounds near the front sight base and you'd have something close to the balance.  This was mostly due to the, IMO, useless steel bipod that it was equipped with.  Then there was the fact that the flash hider was machined as part of the barrel.  And oh yeah, the optics mounting system was like a kludge you'd expect from a German WW2 secret wunderwaffen project.  And the magazines...rock solid, but if I wanted more than the 10 that came with the package I'd pay about $100 each. 

And you know what?  It was still routinely outshot by an AR that cost about 20% of what I paid; iron sights to iron sights.

People who handled it and weren't emotionally (or financially) invested in it like I was all commented that it had one of the smoothest actions they'd every handled, on any type of rifle, that the trigger was exceptional for a service trigger, that it was nose heavy, and the bipod sucked and was worthless.

When someone, who just *had* to have one, contacted me about eight months after I bought it and offered $9500 if I'd sell it, well...it was at UPS the day after the check cleared.

I tried to justify every negative quirk that the 550 had...that I would acknowledge...by referring back to the documents that the Swiss issued defining what they wanted.  In hindsight, it really was an amazing rifle, but it needed people who weren't wedded to the Swiss requirements to examine it and then do to it what had been done to the AR; turn it from a great rifle into a truly exception rifle.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 12:45:29 PM
I just stopped by to say that Youtube tests tend to be extremely biased. I'm not saying that the AK isn't a reliable weapon, I'm just saying be wary.
The worst example I have for you is InRangeTV's Tavor, AR and AK "Mud Tests".

In the videos, he covers the Tavor's ejection port with mud, hardly shakes it off and then tries to fire it (doesn't do any forward assist either).
For the AK he doesn't do a ton for it either or do what most people would do with an AK (which is pop the dust cover and shake it out for 2 seconds).
For his AR test after he muds it, he gives it shaken baby syndrome, and also wipes the ejection port clean in the second test before firing.

So there are people like that out there.

Biggest thing about the AR is that it is a sealed system, it does very well at repelling debris. Now the video I showed where the guy just dunks the AR in some sandy water- that's what kills the AR. The water with silt can get in.




Very well put!  In 2002 I decided that I just had to have a SIG-550 to the point where over the span of about three weeks I obsessively followed every lead, no matter how obscure, to locate one of the 600 or so that had been imported prior to Bush 41 signing the 1989 import ban.  I learned from past sales and talking with buyers and sellers that the going price for one was ~$8500, give or take depending on condition.  When I found a 550-2 (even rarer as it had the 1:7 barrel) that was single owner in mint condition with less than one magazine fired through it for $8600 delivered, I jumped on it like a terrier on a rat.

Mind you, in all of this I had never actually *handled* a 550 before I picked it up at my dealer's shop.  

The reality, to me, didn't match the hype and billing, IMO...  It was exceptionally muzzle heavy; take a 20" box stock AR-15 and add about two and half pounds near the front sight base and you'd have something close to the balance.  This was mostly due to the, IMO, useless steel bipod that it was equipped with.  Then there was the fact that the flash hider was machined as part of the barrel.  And oh yeah, the optics mounting system was like a kludge you'd expect from a German WW2 secret wunderwaffen project.  And the magazines...rock solid, but if I wanted more than the 10 that came with the package I'd pay about $100 each.  

And you know what?  It was still routinely outshot by an AR that cost about 20% of what I paid; iron sights to iron sights.

People who handled it and weren't emotionally (or financially) invested in it like I was all commented that it had one of the smoothest actions they'd every handled, on any type of rifle, that the trigger was exceptional for a service trigger, that it was nose heavy, and the bipod sucked and was worthless.

When someone, who just *had* to have one, contacted me about eight months after I bought it and offered $9500 if I'd sell it, well...it was at UPS the day after the check cleared.

I tried to justify every negative quirk that the 550 had...that I would acknowledge...by referring back to the documents that the Swiss issued defining what they wanted.  In hindsight, it really was an amazing rifle, but it needed people who weren't wedded to the Swiss requirements to examine it and then do to it what had been done to the AR; turn it from a great rifle into a truly exception rifle.




Yah I had a couple SIG Classic 556's and didn't like the operating system at all. It was AK esque but not a true AK. It was also like you mention, front heavy.



Bottom line though, there is not another rifle built currently in 2017 as reliable and durable as an AK overall. Plenty of rifles are far more ergonomic- but that's not what I'm talking about. A lot of older designs, especially FN, HK- were designed for real duty, to survive real drop tests or even function in extreme conditions. However stuff being made today in Western countries is lightly constructed garbage that wouldn't survive drop tests or environmental tests that other weapons in the past could. I don't even think most weapons today could pass the Alaska Highway Patrol test from the 1980's. The only rifles that did pass that test back then were the Valmet, Galil, and an FNC. While the HK's and AR's actually choked out or broke completely. If someone claims a rifle is durable- show me the drop test onto concrete. Someone claims a rifle is reliable- show me the weapon firing under water. We have the technology to build superior weapons so not sure why we haven't just yet. 


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 04:59:00 PM
Bottom line though, there is not another rifle built currently in 2017 as reliable and durable as an AK overall.

LOL!
That is a bunch of fanboy bullsh!t, and you know it.
You're just here to stir the pot.  Let me take a wild guess, you don't want to buy a Tavor because jews made it?  ::)  Typical filer.

Probably 90%+ of the members who responded to this thread have owned multiple AK's, but you just ignore everything they bring to the table in regards to this discussion.

We have all been respectful, but you have yet to say anything besides
 ''Her der muh ak is da best mos reliable weapon ever and everything else sucks!''

Just to correct your red dawn fallacy, there are dozens of guns that pass the over the beach test with flying colors, including the Tavor,  and there are also dozens of guns that pass drop tests, including the Tavor.
You blow off the Sig 550 series because you bought an american clone, but didn't like it, yet you have nothing scientific in regards to your argument besides feelings.   You've never owned a Tavor or many of the other guns mentioned, but you're an expert on them and know the AK is better because you watched bubbas mud test on youtube.. Ok


You're an AKfanboy and probably a member of the akfiles, we get it.  However, your feelings don't change the fact that dozens if not hundreds of countries that used to use AK's for their military have now moved on to other guns for various legitimate reasons.  Countries wouldn't replace AK's with guns that weren't as good as AK's.

Quoting this again, because this thread is ******ed.


Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 05:29:36 PM


LOL!
That is a bunch of fanboy bullsh!t, and you know it.
You're just here to stir the pot.  Let me take a wild guess, you don't want to buy a Tavor because jews made it?  ::)  Typical filer.

Probably 90%+ of the members who responded to this thread have owned multiple AK's, but you just ignore everything they bring to the table in regards to this discussion.

We have all been respectful, but you have yet to say anything besides
 ''Her der muh ak is da best mos reliable weapon ever and everything else sucks!''

Just to correct your red dawn fallacy, there are dozens of guns that pass the over the beach test with flying colors, including the Tavor,  and there are also dozens of guns that pass drop tests, including the Tavor.
You blow off the Sig 550 series because you bought an american clone, but didn't like it, yet you have nothing scientific in regards to your argument besides feelings.   You've never owned a Tavor or many of the other guns mentioned, but you're an expert on them and know the AK is better because you watched bubbas mud test on youtube.. Ok


You're an AKfanboy and probably a member of the akfiles, we get it.  However, your feelings don't change the fact that dozens if not hundreds of countries that used to use AK's for their military have now moved on to other guns for various legitimate reasons.  Countries wouldn't replace AK's with guns that weren't as good as AK's.

Quoting this again, because this thread is ******ed.




There are not dozens of guns that can fire underwater and pass a ten foot drop test onto concrete. In fact- I can't name a single rifle manufactured today that can pass those two tests that isn't an AK variant- not a single one at all. That's the gauntlet- can fire underwater without damage and survive a ten foot drop onto concrete without damage. There aren't any, everything else is a compromise.


7n6



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 05:45:34 PM


LOL!
That is a bunch of fanboy bullsh!t, and you know it.
You're just here to stir the pot.  Let me take a wild guess, you don't want to buy a Tavor because jews made it?  ::)  Typical filer.

Probably 90%+ of the members who responded to this thread have owned multiple AK's, but you just ignore everything they bring to the table in regards to this discussion.

We have all been respectful, but you have yet to say anything besides
 ''Her der muh ak is da best mos reliable weapon ever and everything else sucks!''

Just to correct your red dawn fallacy, there are dozens of guns that pass the over the beach test with flying colors, including the Tavor,  and there are also dozens of guns that pass drop tests, including the Tavor.
You blow off the Sig 550 series because you bought an american clone, but didn't like it, yet you have nothing scientific in regards to your argument besides feelings.   You've never owned a Tavor or many of the other guns mentioned, but you're an expert on them and know the AK is better because you watched bubbas mud test on youtube.. Ok


You're an AKfanboy and probably a member of the akfiles, we get it.  However, your feelings don't change the fact that dozens if not hundreds of countries that used to use AK's for their military have now moved on to other guns for various legitimate reasons.  Countries wouldn't replace AK's with guns that weren't as good as AK's.

Quoting this again, because this thread is ******ed.



'Her der muh ak is da best mos reliable weapon ever and everything else sucks!



7n6



What a bunch of fanboy bulls***.

Lol

First of all An Ak's 1mm stamped sheet metal receiver would easily fail a ten foot drop test if it hit the center of the receiver.  I've seen non-functional dented AK's, and seen plenty of AK's Jam.
  The cast gas block and gas tube could easily break as well.  The crown would get easily dented too making the AK a 6MOA gun into a 24MOA gun.
The gun is not indestructible.  AK's are made out of basically the same types of metals most other guns are.  Ak's aren't made of magic pixie dust.
I've personally accidentally dropped several different guns onto concrete, including AR's and they still work.

Shooting underwater?
You might have missed the several times I stated the Tavor passes the Over the beach tests, and so do several other guns.

But why does that matter?  Are you hunting fish?   You realize that a bullet only travels a few feet under water right?  Not to mention that EVEN AN AK'S barrel will become damaged from all the extra pressure of firing under water.  Will the gun cycle?  Sure, but all that added pressure is going to eat through parts.

Firearms Safety 101, never shoot a gun with an obstruction in the barrel, and yes that includes water and oil.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 05:53:17 PM
'' her dur my gun is da besstest and everything else is a peeece ov sheeit ''

You AK boys are no better than the AR15 boys.

Akfiles.com and AR15.com are both completely engulfed with mouth breathers, including the Mods.

There is a thread that is Identical to this going on at Barfcom, just Replace OP with AR instead of AK.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 06:11:58 PM

What a bunch of fanboy bulls***.

Lol

First of all
 An Ak's 1mm stamped sheet metal receiver would easily fail a ten foot drop test if it hit the center of the receiver.  I've seen non functional dented AK's, and seen plenty of AK's Jam.
  The gas block and gas tube could easily break as well.  The crown would get easily dented too making the AK a 6MOA gun into a 24MOA gun.
The gun is not indestructible.
I've personally accidentally dropped several different guns onto concrete, including AR's and they still work.

Shooting underwater?
You might have missed the several times I stated the Tavor passes the Over the beach tests, and so do several other guns.

But why does that matter?  Are you hunting fish?   You realize that a bullet only travels a few feet under water right?  Not to mention that EVEN AN AK'S barrel will become damaged from all the extra pressure of firing under water.  Will the gun cycle?  Sure, but all that added pressure is going to eat through parts.

Firearms Safety 101, never shoot a gun with an obstruction in the barrel, and yes that includes water and oil.



Could, maybe- nah. Seen AK's take a THIRTY foot fall onto concrete, run over by a damn truck, a car, and continue firing! Seen AK's fire entire magazines under water without any issue then reload and do it again! Just mention any other rifle that can not only survive a lowly ten foot drop onto concrete but also be able to fire underwater multiple times without damage. Here's a hint, there isn't one- I've looked for years for a replacement, I've owned it all and there isn't anything else. Everything is just a bunch of glossy bulls*** pre-paid gunwriter blogs pimping one failed design after another. Old Mr. K set that bar so high some seventy years ago that here we are today with not one challenger. Sad is what it is, just sad.

Oracle of truth,

7n6


Hold an AK!

"When I hold an AK in my hands, I get feels I don't understand, man
Feels like pop, pop, like chop, chop
This b**** just never jams
it does what I demand!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgpEuCUm6SE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgpEuCUm6SE)



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 06:46:15 PM
Lol. k
 Keep drinking the koolaid  ::)

It's not like there aren't dozens of other long stroke gas piston operated firearms that have cold hammer forged barrels with open space in the receiver or anything.  Oh wait, yes there are, and those rifles also have better accuracy and more features.
  I saw a video of a Tavor getting run over by a truck, and it blasted through a full mag right after without a hicup, since I saw that on youtube that must mean that all Tavors can get run over by trucks without any problems, but since I saw RobSki ruin an AK by running it over with a truck that must mean that no ak can handle being run over by a truck  ::)
/End sarcasm

I doubt I'm the only person here besides the OP who used to drink the AK koolaid.

Side note, the AK market sucks right now.  No more imported 74's, only decent imported 47 is the Wasr.. Last Wasr I bought had bad headspace, and couldn't make it through a mag without jamming.  Also shot about 8'' groups at 100 yards. 
I currently hand load 223 with bonded soft points that costs me less than 25 cents per round, and none of my 223 chambered weapons give me any problems; but I guess since they aren't AK's that shoot poison bullets at 5MOA I just bought a bunch of pieces of sh!t right?


If you like AK's or AR's I have no problem with that, I love them too.. But don't blow smoke up my ass and try to convince me using pure conjecture that AK's are superior to every single other weapon on planet earth.


P.S
Carnikcon is a funny dude, I miss his videos.

I used to drink the same Koolaid that you currently do, but AK Koolaid ain't the only koolaid out there.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 06:50:45 PM


Hur dur Ak47 is da mos bestes weapon on planet earf and everything else is a piece of s*** because youtube and the akfiles says so





This is what I hear when I read your responses.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 07:43:15 PM

It's not like there aren't dozens of other long stroke gas piston operated firearms that have cold hammer forged barrels with open space in the receiver or anything. 


Name one non AK variant produced today that can not only fire underwater but also survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 07:58:04 PM

It's not like there aren't dozens of other long stroke gas piston operated firearms that have cold hammer forged barrels with open space in the receiver or anything. 


Name one non AK variant produced today that can not only fire underwater but also survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.


7n6

Tavor
Hk-416
Scar
and probably many more, those are just the ones I've seen handle drop tests and water tests.


Not like that even matters, a bullet only travels a few feet when traveling underwater.  That is the most ******ed standard anyone could hold for a firearm.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 08:09:28 PM

It's not like there aren't dozens of other long stroke gas piston operated firearms that have cold hammer forged barrels with open space in the receiver or anything.  


Name one non AK variant produced today that can not only fire underwater but also survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.


7n6

Tavor
Hk-416
Scar
and probably many more, those are just the ones I've seen handle drop tests and water tests.


Not like that even matters, a bullet only travels a few feet when traveling underwater.  That is the most ******ed standard anyone could hold for a firearm.


Seen a SCAR come apart after an eight foot drop during the Peruvian military trials. Heard the Tavor didn't survive being dropped off Geissele's work bench. Finally, the 416 is still an AR at heart- so I imagine it would be risky for that buffer tube smacking on the concrete. Simply, I've thought about this for a long time, realizing there is no rifle currently made that can beat the AK in terms of shear durability and reliability.

1.) Must be able to fire underwater repeatedly without damage.

2.) Must be able to survive a drop from at minimum ten feet onto concrete without damage. 


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 08:13:48 PM
Most ******ed tests ever.. ::)
I would never shoot any gun including an AK under water, and if it got dropped in a pond, I would shake any gun out before firing it.

Scar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CxwJA_68E

hk416
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y

Tavor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4z5rTQZQF0

Bren 805
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Prn-Jt-no

Since these videos are on youtube the must be irrefutable scientific evidence!  :LOL


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 08:16:06 PM
Ya, you think an AK 100 series rifles plastic stock wouldn't break just as easily as any other plastic stock.  Lol


Now you're going to tell me that the commies use magic pixie dust in their plastic stocks right?
Let me guess, a Russian plastic Ak stock can be dropped from 30 feet into a pit of lava and not take any damage right?


I love how you are just using conjecture from stuff you have heard and youtube videos rather than any first hand experience.   I highly doubt you have even owned or shot the various rifles that you imply are pieces of s***.

What do you think about my Wasr that grouped 8'' at 100 yards and couldn't make it through a mag without jamming?

None of my AK's group better than maybe 4-5 MOA on a good day, maybe one 3'' group, then the rest are 5'' groups.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 08:19:33 PM
Most ******ed tests ever.. ::)
I would never shoot any gun including an AK under water, and if it got dropped in a pond, I would shake any gun out before firing it.

Scar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CxwJA_68E

hk416
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y

Tavor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4z5rTQZQF0

Bren 805
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Prn-Jt-no

Since these videos are on youtube the must be irrefutable scientific evidence!  :LOL



Only one rifle in all those videos shows it being fired UNDERWATER, the 416. The rest are the weak over the beach tests used for weapons that can't handle firing underwater. However even as such, I still doubt they'd survive the ten foot drop test onto concrete- let alone a thirty foot drop test onto concrete.

AK is master race.


7n6



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 08:20:19 PM

1.) Must be able to fire underwater repeatedly without damage.

7n6

What are you scuba diving and hunting sharks from 1 foot away.  The bullets wouldn't penetrate anything underwater further than 1 foot, you realize that right?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 08:25:40 PM

What are you scuba diving and hunting sharks from 1 foot away.  The bullets wouldn't penetrate anything underwater further than 1 foot, you realize that right?

The entire point of being able to fire underwater is that the weapon can handle the pressure and still run reliably. If it needs to be drained as in removed from the water before firing as they often do in the over the beach tests-  then the rifle isn't on the same level. You might say, that's not necessary- maybe so but those are my parameters for reliability. The parameters for durability is the ten foot drop test onto concrete. Now think about that, the AK designed seventy years ago can pass both tests.


7n6





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 08:34:54 PM
Most ******ed tests ever.. ::)
I would never shoot any gun including an AK under water, and if it got dropped in a pond, I would shake any gun out before firing it.

Scar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CxwJA_68E

hk416
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y

Tavor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4z5rTQZQF0

Bren 805
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Prn-Jt-no

Since these videos are on youtube the must be irrefutable scientific evidence!  :LOL



Only one rifle in all those videos shows it being fired UNDERWATER, the 416. The rest are the weak over the beach tests used for weapons that can't handle firing underwater. However even as such, I still doubt they'd survive the ten foot drop test onto concrete- let alone a thirty foot drop test onto concrete.

AK is master race.


7n6



Put your money where your mouth is.
Take one of your AK's, and drop it from 10-30 feet right on the gas black onto concrete, record it and post the results.  Although I highly doubt you are willing to do that because you know your gun will get messed up.


Judging by your posting style, and vocabulary; I am willing to bet I am much older than you, and that I have been shooting AK's much longer than you.  As have many other people on this forum.

I've seen plenty of jammomatic AK's, and I've seen plenty of AK's break.  They are not made out of magic pixie dust, they are made out of the same materials that most other guns are made out of.  There are dozens of modern weapons that use long stroke gas pistons.
I have bought AK's built in every country that is available to the US market besides the Egyptions, none of them shot better than 4-5MOA, and a bunch of them shot 8-10'' groups at 100 yards.

Your immature babbling would be much more praised over on the Ak forums.

The thing about you AK guys, is you constantly Trash talk AR guys, but you and the fags on Barfcom are no better than each other.  Just a bunch of ignorant mouth breathers defending their expensive firearms investments.

Most of the members here are either, Vets, Active service, or Law Enforcement, and most of them know what they are talking about.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 30, 2017, 08:41:08 PM
What's all this talk about rifles needing to be fired underwater and dropped off a 10-20" high rooftop levels to be rugged enough? 35 years of shooting guns, 25+ professionally and never once have I dropped a gun from more than table top height (and can count on one hand the total number of times I have ever dropped a gun). I have never needed to fire one underwater nor has anyone I know of or have read about in professional journals.

Since 99.99999999% of us are not an active part of a SOCOM/SAS/GSG9/FBI HRT or other super duper high speed unit then the requirements for the above to meet your "rugged enough" standard are just plain fantasy land for anything one will encounter as a civilian using a rifle for SD. In fact the aforementioned high speed units don't even use AKs and for the most part they can pick any firearm they deem the best.

AKs are good rifles with a solid track record, no one is saying they are not. But they are NOT the end all be all in reliability and ruggedness, not by a long shot. It is clear you are sold on "nothing but an AK will do". If the Galil ACE does not meet your standards then my last suggestion to achieve your standards plus enhance the ergonomics is to look a having a custom AK built by one of the big name custom AK shops.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 08:42:20 PM
[

Put your money where your mouth is.
Take one of your AK's, and drop it from 10-30 feet right on the gas black onto concrete, record it and post the results.  


I don't need to, that's a Russian military standard for durability is a ten foot drop test onto concrete. Now the test I saw that really impressed me was an promotional video with a AK 74M tossed from a third story window onto concrete, picked up, fired- then run over by a large truck followed by a car and fired again. I've only seen that video back in the 1990's and short clip in the intro of one of Robski's videos.  




What's all this talk about rifles needing to be fired underwater and dropped off a 10-20" high rooftop levels to be rugged enough? 35 years of shooting guns, 25+ professionally and never once have I dropped a gun from more than table top height (and can count on one hand the total number of times I have ever dropped a gun). I have never needed to fire one underwater nor has anyone I know of or have read about in professional journals.


That's why this thread is called; "can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK?". The answer so far- no. At least not a rifle system that can:

1.) Fire repeatedly underwater.

2.) Survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.  


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 08:57:58 PM
What's all this talk about rifles needing to be fired underwater and dropped off a 10-20" high rooftop levels to be rugged enough? 35 years of shooting guns, 25+ professionally and never once have I dropped a gun from more than table top height (and can count on one hand the total number of times I have ever dropped a gun). I have never needed to fire one underwater nor has anyone I know of or have read about in professional journals.

Since 99.99999999% of us are not an active part of a SOCOM/SAS/GSG9/FBI HRT or other super duper high speed unit then the requirements for the above to meet your "rugged enough" standard are just plain fantasy land for anything one will encounter as a civilian using a rifle for SD. In fact the aforementioned high speed units don't even use AKs and for the most part they can pick any firearm they deem the best.

AKs are good rifles with a solid track record, no one is saying they are not. But they are NOT the end all be all in reliability and ruggedness, not by a long shot. It is clear you are sold on "nothing but an AK will do". If the Galil ACE does not meet your standards then my last suggestion to achieve your standards plus enhance the ergonomics is to look a having a custom AK built by one of the big name custom AK shops.




I agree with you man.
This kid won't hear it though.
The funny part is most of us here actually have jobs that require us to use reliable weapons, but our first hand experience means nothing compared to his ''russian youtube promotional videos ''.  I mean, how do we talk logic with someone who thinks he needs to have a gun that he can shoot underwater  :LOL . 

Hey 7n6, if you won't throw your ak off your roof or drop it 10ft onto concrete, then you obviously don't think it would be good for the gun.  If you were 100% confident that your cast gas block wouldn't break, or that your receiver wouldn't get bent, you would throw it off your roof without hesitation.
BTW, your beloved robski ruined an AK by running it over with a truck.  Ironically I believe he deleted that video recently.  But if you search forums, you will see a bunch of ak fanboys crying about that video saying stuff like '' Well you can't just run over an AK with a truck and expect it to work, ak is still tha bestest''.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 30, 2017, 09:01:50 PM
[

Put your money where your mouth is.
Take one of your AK's, and drop it from 10-30 feet right on the gas black onto concrete, record it and post the results.  


I don't need to, that's a Russian military standard for durability is a ten foot drop test onto concrete. Now the test I saw that really impressed me was an promotional video with a AK 74M tossed from a third story
 window onto concrete, picked up, fired- then run over by a large truck followed by a car and fired again. I've only seen that video back in the 1990's and short clip in the intro of one of Robski's videos.  



What's all this talk about rifles needing to be fired underwater and dropped off a 10-20" high rooftop levels to be rugged enough? 35 years of shooting guns, 25+ professionally and never once have I dropped a gun from more than table top height (and can count on one hand the total number of times I have ever dropped a gun). I have never needed to fire one underwater nor has anyone I know of or have read about in professional journals.


That's why this thread is called; "can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK?". The answer so far- no. At least not a rifle system that can:

1.) Fire repeatedly underwater.

2.) Survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.  


7n6


1.) Could you please explain under what circumstances or imagined scenario one would need to fire a rifle multiple times while submerged under water?  Can you point to any documented cases that this has happened in a life and death situation?

2.) A mil spec M4 can easily handle a 10" drop onto concert. In fact they have been tested as high as 25" and were still operational. If the M4 is one thing it is a tuff SOB in drop and crush testing where it easily outperforms the stamped receiver AKs.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 09:09:16 PM
I saw an M4 get dropped about 10 times onto concrete from about 5-6 feet high onto the magazine, bubba was trying to test some various magazine durability or something ******ed.
Rifle functioned just fine after.

I have shamefully dropped a few different rifles as well onto the ground, besides paint scuffing, the rifles had no issues.

Here is the kicker.. I have a Russian Saiga that fell off my Truck tailgate in a wind storm.  Muzzle hit the ground first and completely ruined the crown on the barrel.  It was the perfect heart breaking moment.  That AK is still sitting in my safe, and I need to take it to a gun smith to get it professionally recrowned.   Maybe I'll take a picture later tonight if I remember.  I'm still pissed at myself for letting that happen.  The gun still cycles fine, but it groups about 12'' at 100 yards.

Doesn't matter what kind of gun you have, you hit the crown on the ground or something hard enough, and you are going to ruin the crown.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 09:11:59 PM
The funny thing is..

I prefer AK's over AR's for certain applications.  People here have seen me say that in other threads  :ROFLMAO


(https://imgflip.com/i/1v0siy)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 30, 2017, 09:39:46 PM


1.) Could you please explain under what circumstances or imagined scenario one would need to fire a rifle multiple times while submerged under water?  Can you point to any documented cases that this has happened in a life and death situation?

2.) A mil spec M4 can easily handle a 10" drop onto concert. In fact they have been tested as high as 25" and were still operational. If the M4 is one thing it is a tuff SOB in drop and crush testing where it easily outperforms the stamped receiver AKs.




1.) No reason other than you have to start with some benchmarks for reliability. So I think firing underwater is a pretty high bar to cross.

2.) Maybe but I did see a video of an M4 coming apart that wasn't even dropped from fifteen feet. Perhaps it all depends on the angle.

Which is my point as no one has been able to show any additional weapons capable of handling both tests yet. Perhaps they need to start building modern firearms with a little more durability in mind.   


7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 30, 2017, 11:17:33 PM

1.) No reason other than you have to start with some benchmarks for reliability. So I think firing underwater is a pretty high bar to cross.

2.) Maybe but I did see a video of an M4 coming apart that wasn't even dropped from fifteen feet. Perhaps it all depends on the angle.

Which is my point as no one has been able to show any additional weapons capable of handling both tests yet. Perhaps they need to start building modern firearms with a little more durability in mind.   


7n6 
C'mon, man. It may be a "high" benchmark, but it isn't realistic for normal gun owners by any measure. If you were in a combat zone where lakes and rivers were prevalent, I could see your point, but your consistent fanaticism with the AK does nothing for expanding your horizons. If you need your evidence, go pick out a rifle that interests you and run your own tests. It seems anecdotal evidence will be the only thing that'll change your mind.

It does beg to ask though, what did you expect out of this whole post? You clearly hold the AK close to your chest, and nothing presented has made a dent on your faith in the design.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 11:25:39 PM


1.) Could you please explain under what circumstances or imagined scenario one would need to fire a rifle multiple times while submerged under water?  Can you point to any documented cases that this has happened in a life and death situation?

2.) A mil spec M4 can easily handle a 10" drop onto concert. In fact they have been tested as high as 25" and were still operational. If the M4 is one thing it is a tuff SOB in drop and crush testing where it easily outperforms the stamped receiver AKs.




1.) No reason other than you have to start with some benchmarks for reliability. So I think firing underwater is a pretty high bar to cross.

2.) Maybe but I did see a video of an M4 coming apart that wasn't even dropped from fifteen feet. Perhaps it all depends on the angle.

Which is my point as no one has been able to show any additional weapons capable of handling both tests yet. Perhaps they need to start building modern firearms with a little more durability in mind.   


7n6  


  I just showed you 4 different guns that functioned flawlessly after being submerged in water, and you blew it off.  So by your own definition of acceptable reliability you just agreed with me that the Tavor, Hk416, Scar, and Bren all meet your reliability standards.  The thing is, even an AK barrel gets damaged if shot with debris in it like water, and AK barrels are made the exact same way with the exact same materials as many other guns.  The throat, rifling, and chamber were not designed to withstand the consistent overpressure of being shot underwater.  I am willing to bet any AK shot underwater afterwards would group no better than 8-12'' at 100 yards, if even that accurate.



NEXT POINT.

Put your money where your mouth is, drop your AK from your roof if you are 100% sure nothing will break on it.  If you don't feel comfortable dropping your AK right on its gas block from 10 feet on to concrete than you don't think your AK meets the standards you just set.
If you don't post a video of you hucking your AK from your roof, then you obviously don't think your weapon could take that kind of abuse.

I have an AK with a damaged crown that only fell about 2-3 feet from my truck bed on to the crown into gravel, by your definition my AK ( Russian Saiga ) did not meet your durability standards.


Both of your points have been proven to be pure conjecture repeatedly by multiple members.




Nobody here said AK's are bad guns.. I own a ton of them, granted they only group 5-10MOA, I still shoot them sometimes, and I like them.. But you aren't going to convince anyone that AK's are the best guns on earth, because they simply are not. 





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 30, 2017, 11:36:40 PM
That's why this thread is called; "can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK?". The answer so far- no. At least not a rifle system that can:

1.) Fire repeatedly underwater.

2.) Survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.  


7n6


I'm willing to accept that the Navy SEALs know a wee bit more than you about conducting waterborne and airborne operations where the rifle will be underwater or potentially dropped from a height...and they use an AR pattern rifle most of the time unless the situation specifically calls for a different tool.

You pick and choose requirements without looking at the standards that are actually required.  The Swiss test I posted (here or in another thread, and reposted below) is very close to the NATO standard.  The AK is a fine rifle, it just isn't the be-all, end-all that you're making it out to be.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/ (http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/)

Now, with all that being said, I'll paraphrase something Steve Jobs said about 20 years ago when he took over Apple:  We need to get past this idea that for the <insert pet gun here> to "win", the <insert the gun you dislike here> has to "lose".


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 30, 2017, 11:38:40 PM


1.) Could you please explain under what circumstances or imagined scenario one would need to fire a rifle multiple times while submerged under water?  Can you point to any documented cases that this has happened in a life and death situation?



He is a mermaid protecting his underwater house from seamen?
 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 30, 2017, 11:43:24 PM
1.) No reason other than you have to start with some benchmarks for reliability. So I think firing underwater is a pretty high bar to cross.

This makes as much sense as having a masturbation contest to see who can squirt the farthest.

2.) Maybe but I did see a video of an M4 coming apart that wasn't even dropped from fifteen feet. Perhaps it all depends on the angle.

Which is my point as no one has been able to show any additional weapons capable of handling both tests yet. Perhaps they need to start building modern firearms with a little more durability in mind.   


7n6  

A sample size of one.

Perhaps the reason why you haven't "seen" any other weapons doing so is because the test criteria is patently silly and obtuse.   There is no consideration of mechanical reliability, parts quality, MRBF, or environmental conditions.  Put your beloved AK through the same tests the Swiss did when they tested the 550.

Oh, and your SIG 556?  Ha!  They're a joke compared to a real 550, both in quality and fit and finish.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 30, 2017, 11:44:12 PM
It does beg to ask though, what did you expect out of this whole post? You clearly hold the AK close to your chest, and nothing presented has made a dent on your faith in the design.

He seeks peer validation of his choices.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 31, 2017, 12:26:01 AM


1.) Could you please explain under what circumstances or imagined scenario one would need to fire a rifle multiple times while submerged under water?  Can you point to any documented cases that this has happened in a life and death situation?

2.) A mil spec M4 can easily handle a 10" drop onto concert. In fact they have been tested as high as 25" and were still operational. If the M4 is one thing it is a tuff SOB in drop and crush testing where it easily outperforms the stamped receiver AKs.




1.) No reason other than you have to start with some benchmarks for reliability. So I think firing underwater is a pretty high bar to cross.

2.) Maybe but I did see a video of an M4 coming apart that wasn't even dropped from fifteen feet. Perhaps it all depends on the angle.

Which is my point as no one has been able to show any additional weapons capable of handling both tests yet. Perhaps they need to start building modern firearms with a little more durability in mind.   


7n6  


1.) In this you just showed everyone your total lack of firearms experience. Owning firearms is not the same as experience with firearms. I expected more than a "video gamer" answer that would at least show some knowledge of the real world uses of firearms you seem to claim.

2.) A (1) video? Done by who? And with what qualifications? You do know U.S. Government test results on this and a great number of other firearms/ammunition testing can be found online is you dig a bit. It requires one to do some READING of technical data and have the ability to understand it, but it is there. And NO, I will not post links because you (and others like you) need to learn how to find information that is deeper than a YouTube video or a forum post.





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 12:42:20 AM
OP is probably a teenager that gets his firearms experience from call of duty.
No point in trying to have a reasonable discussion.
I used to be the same way about AKs when I was young and inexperienced. 
I might have been shooting my whole life, but I learned a ton over the past few years of research and experience.

Op will get there in time I'm sure.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 31, 2017, 02:08:38 AM

I just showed you 4 different guns that functioned flawlessly after being submerged in water, and you blew it off.  So by your own definition of acceptable reliability you just agreed with me that the Tavor, Hk416, Scar, and Bren all meet your reliability standards.  The thing is, even an AK barrel gets damaged if shot with debris in it like water, and AK barrels are made the exact same way with the exact same materials as many other guns.  The throat, rifling, and chamber were not designed to withstand the consistent overpressure of being shot underwater.  I am willing to bet any AK shot underwater afterwards would group no better than 8-12'' at 100 yards, if even that accurate.



NEXT POINT.

Put your money where your mouth is, drop your AK from your roof if you are 100% sure nothing will break on it.  If you don't feel comfortable dropping your AK right on its gas block from 10 feet on to concrete than you don't think your AK meets the standards you just set.
If you don't post a video of you hucking your AK from your roof, then you obviously don't think your weapon could take that kind of abuse.

I have an AK with a damaged crown that only fell about 2-3 feet from my truck bed on to the crown into gravel, by your definition my AK ( Russian Saiga ) did not meet your durability standards.


Both of your points have been proven to be pure conjecture repeatedly by multiple members.

Nobody here said AK's are bad guns.. I own a ton of them, granted they only group 5-10MOA, I still shoot them sometimes, and I like them.. But you aren't going to convince anyone that AK's are the best guns on earth, because they simply are not.  


You pointed out four rifles, three of which were not being shown firing underwater and each removed from the water allowing to essentially fully drain before firing. That's not the same thing as being able to fire underwater- that was the bench mark.

Also, you dropping an AK on the driveway damaging the crown- it will still function. It would run easily tens of thousands of rounds without issue- just borrow one of those crowning jigs that some of the gunsmith supply places have and fix it. Not sure what the point of that was anyway.




A sample size of one.

Perhaps the reason why you haven't "seen" any other weapons doing so is because the test criteria is patently silly and obtuse.   There is no consideration of mechanical reliability, parts quality, MRBF, or environmental conditions.  Put your beloved AK through the same tests the Swiss did when they tested the 550.

Oh, and your SIG 556?  Ha!  They're a joke compared to a real 550, both in quality and fit and finish.

I had a total sample size of three SIG 556 Classic's. My assessment, there isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG 55X and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on a Swiss one. I almost bought one of the "Black Special" SIG 550's but it was still a heavy design that just didn't do anything for me.  




1.) In this you just showed everyone your total lack of firearms experience. Owning firearms is not the same as experience with firearms. I expected more than a "video gamer" answer that would at least show some knowledge of the real world uses of firearms you seem to claim.

2.) A (1) video? Done by who? And with what qualifications? You do know U.S. Government test results on this and a great number of other firearms/ammunition testing can be found online is you dig a bit. It requires one to do some READING of technical data and have the ability to understand it, but it is there. And NO, I will not post links because you (and others like you) need to learn how to find information that is deeper than a YouTube video or a forum post.



I've run a few hundred thousand rounds these past couple decades. Owned dozens of firearms. I simply wanted to find out which modern rifles can hit the same benchmarks of reliability as an old AK such as being able to fire underwater and survive a ten foot drop test onto concrete. I haven't found anything that can pass both tests. As far as the M4 goes- it doesn't matter, it's being phased out anyway. Maybe for a rifle that doesn't attempt to extract while under peak dwell pressure while simultaneously burning off it's own lubrication.


7n6    


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 31, 2017, 02:17:18 AM

What is experience? I've run a few hundred thousand rounds in my lifetime and designed firearms- I think I can form some opinions. You show me one M4 that can run with all it's original parts out to say 80K rounds like a basic $400 AK- then maybe it might be worth something but by then the M4 requires that you rebuild it a few times or at least replace half it's components. The carbine length gas system is attempting to extract under peak dwell pressure while at the same time burning off it's own lubrication- it's a lose/lose design all around. Does it work well, sure- as long as it's "maintained" and has the best ammo, best magazines, where anything that goes wrong is blamed on some component or part rather than the overall failed design itself. It functions like in some perfect balance where if you change anything, anything goes out of spec- then it begins to malfunction. The M4 is being replaced anyway with hopefully something better. Maybe this time around they won't pick a rifle simply based on the ability to entertain a drunk general at a party shooting watermelons.

7n6    

What $400 AK can do that? AKs I've seen at that price cannibalize themselves before they get remotely close to that count.
Frankly, what rifle can do that while still being stock without any repairs? I imagine that is long past the reasonable service life of damn near everything on any rifle, including your fabled 400$ miracle gun.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 02:25:26 AM
Lol 
Even if an AK went 80k with all original parts ( which it won't), the barrel would be a smooth bore.  Might shoot 2 foot groups at 100 yards.
Sorry bro, recoil spring, extractor, firing pin, all those parts would wear out and need to be replaced.

I pitted out an AK barrel around 12,000 rounds, that thing shot patterns not groups.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Hivedr. on August 31, 2017, 02:55:50 AM

A sample size of one.

Perhaps the reason why you haven't "seen" any other weapons doing so is because the test criteria is patently silly and obtuse.   There is no consideration of mechanical reliability, parts quality, MRBF, or environmental conditions.  Put your beloved AK through the same tests the Swiss did when they tested the 550.

Oh, and your SIG 556?  Ha!  They're a joke compared to a real 550, both in quality and fit and finish.

There isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on something that still would suffer a bulged barrel if fired underwater and still would be front heavy. I have zero interest in them honestly.




1.) In this you just showed everyone your total lack of firearms experience. Owning firearms is not the same as experience with firearms. I expected more than a "video gamer" answer that would at least show some knowledge of the real world uses of firearms you seem to claim.

2.) A (1) video? Done by who? And with what qualifications? You do know U.S. Government test results on this and a great number of other firearms/ammunition testing can be found online is you dig a bit. It requires one to do some READING of technical data and have the ability to understand it, but it is there. And NO, I will not post links because you (and others like you) need to learn how to find information that is deeper than a YouTube video or a forum post.




What is experience? I've run a few hundred thousand rounds in my lifetime, designed firearms, owned hundreds of them and ran the living hell out of them going on three decades. I think I can form some opinions. You show me one M4 that can run with all it's original parts out to say 80K rounds like a basic $400 AK- then maybe it might be worth something but by then the M4 requires that you rebuild it a few times or at least replace half it's components. The carbine length gas system is attempting to extract under peak dwell pressure while at the same time burning off it's own lubrication- it's a lose/lose design all around. Does it work well, sure- as long as it's "maintained" and has the best ammo, best magazines, where anything that goes wrong is blamed on some component or part rather than the overall failed design itself. It functions like in some perfect balance where if you change anything, anything goes out of spec- then it begins to malfunction. The M4 is being replaced anyway with hopefully something better.

7n6    

Just stop you are making yourself more the fool! A $400 price point rifle (= low quality parts) shooting "80K rounds" and needing NO replacement parts, tells us all about your TRUE firearms experience and depth of knowledge. I will waist no more time placating a fool and his imaginary (gamer) world.

Best of luck to you with shooting your 5.56, 2moa, AK submerged underwater.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 31, 2017, 02:59:26 AM
Maybe this guy has a mythical Atlantean Kalashnikov.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 03:05:46 AM

A sample size of one.

Perhaps the reason why you haven't "seen" any other weapons doing so is because the test criteria is patently silly and obtuse.   There is no consideration of mechanical reliability, parts quality, MRBF, or environmental conditions.  Put your beloved AK through the same tests the Swiss did when they tested the 550.

Oh, and your SIG 556?  Ha!  They're a joke compared to a real 550, both in quality and fit and finish.

There isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on something that still would suffer a bulged barrel if fired underwater and still would be front heavy. I have zero interest in them honestly.




1.) In this you just showed everyone your total lack of firearms experience. Owning firearms is not the same as experience with firearms. I expected more than a "video gamer" answer that would at least show some knowledge of the real world uses of firearms you seem to claim.

2.) A (1) video? Done by who? And with what qualifications? You do know U.S. Government test results on this and a great number of other firearms/ammunition testing can be found online is you dig a bit. It requires one to do some READING of technical data and have the ability to understand it, but it is there. And NO, I will not post links because you (and others like you) need to learn how to find information that is deeper than a YouTube video or a forum post.




What is experience? I've run a few hundred thousand rounds in my lifetime, designed firearms, owned hundreds of them and ran the living hell out of them going on three decades. I think I can form some opinions. You show me one M4 that can run with all it's original parts out to say 80K rounds like a basic $400 AK- then maybe it might be worth something but by then the M4 requires that you rebuild it a few times or at least replace half it's components. The carbine length gas system is attempting to extract under peak dwell pressure while at the same time burning off it's own lubrication- it's a lose/lose design all around. Does it work well, sure- as long as it's "maintained" and has the best ammo, best magazines, where anything that goes wrong is blamed on some component or part rather than the overall failed design itself. It functions like in some perfect balance where if you change anything, anything goes out of spec- then it begins to malfunction. The M4 is being replaced anyway with hopefully something better.

7n6    

Just stop you are making yourself more the fool! A $400 price point rifle (= low quality parts) shooting "80K rounds" and needing NO replacement parts, tells us all about your TRUE firearms experience and depth of knowledge. I will waist no more time placating a fool and his imaginary (gamer) world.

Best of luck to you with shooting your 5.56, 2moa, AK submerged underwater.


+1


P.S
 2moa ak lmfao, ya right.  What a crock of BS.  He must think none of us have AKs or something.  I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the forum owns AKs.  Yet nobody here jumped to OPs defense, hmmm I wonder why.

I love robski but that dude cherry picks the hell out of his AK groupings, then people like Op that follow his videos claim they have 2moa AKs.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 03:06:44 AM
Maybe this guy has a mythical Atlantean Kalashnikov.

Ya, home defense against seamen.

P.s Clarke, your profile pic is funny as hell.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 31, 2017, 03:22:02 AM

What $400 AK can do that? AKs I've seen at that price cannibalize themselves before they get remotely close to that count.
Frankly, what rifle can do that while still being stock without any repairs? I imagine that is long past the reasonable service life of damn near everything on any rifle, including your fabled 400$ miracle gun.

A Romarm WASR. Some Nevada machinegun rental range found the average lifespan of the cheapest Romanian AK's on full auto was between 80K to 100K rounds before the front trunnions cracked. They just welded up the trunnions and kept going. Most of the times they would only have to replace recoil springs up until that point. Granted they weren't shooting very far, maybe fifteen yards but even with that high round count- the barrels weren't worn out enough for the rounds to keyhole. There is a twenty page on thread on another website covering this in more detail but here's the basic write up.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/03/how-many-rounds-can-an-ak-fire-before-it-breaks-down/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/03/how-many-rounds-can-an-ak-fire-before-it-breaks-down/)




+1


P.S
 2moa ak lmfao, ya right.  What a crock of BS.  He must think none of us have AKs or something.  I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the forum owns AKs.  Yet nobody here jumped to OPs defense, hmmm I wonder why.

I love robski but that dude cherry picks the hell out of his AK groupings, then people like Op that follow his videos claim they have 2moa AKs.

Around 2 MOA give or take is pretty standard for a 5.56 or 5.45 AK in my experience.  

Here is a 1 MOA Polish Beryl AK called the Archer.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzMOfCk8yg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLzMOfCk8yg)



So in this thread I've linked evidence to AK's running 1 MOA groups, AK's running 80K-100K rounds without major parts breakage, AK's running underwater, AK's running filled with sand, drop tests etc. So my personal position is that the AK has set the benchmark for durability and reliability that has not been surpassed by any other modern firearm to date. I have not been proven otherwise and believe my position is pretty well founded.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 04:11:30 AM
1moa Ak

Lmfao most of my Ar15s aren't even 1moa.
You lost all credibility, the more you post, the more ignorant you show us that you are.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 04:16:55 AM
Op
Go throw your Ak off a roof, post the video on youtube..
It's the only way you can convince us.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 04:24:23 AM
[quote author
Around 2 MOA give or take is pretty standard for a 5.56 or 5.45 AK in my experience.   




Bullllllllshhhhit


5.45 ammo does not shoot 2moa.  You think you're the only person on this board with a 74?  I like 74s, and have shot them with suppressors.  But they aren't much more accurate than a 47.

The only ammo available for 74s is steel case junk, and guess what... 7n6 is more steel case junk.  It's not a magic poison bullet, it yaws one single time inside a target, that is not impressive.
  Impressive would be the bonded soft points I load for 25 cents a round.

The reason nobody takes you seriously is because of your constant  BS claims like the one I just quoted.

Everything you post is pure conjecture.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 04:41:50 AM
[

A Romarm WASR. Some Nevada machinegun rental range found the average lifespan of the cheapest Romanian AK's on full auto was between 80K to 100K rounds before the front trunnions cracked.



I got a Romanian wasr  about 2 years ago, one of the new ones.  It groups 8" patterns at 100 yards and wouldn't make it through a mag without jamming.

So since you read somewhere that someplace shot 80k through a wasr it must be legit right?

Lol, what a fukin crock of s***.

I'm willing to bet everyone in this thread owns an ak or several.  You're talking to AK guys here, we just dont drink mouth breathing koolaid.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 31, 2017, 04:48:42 AM
What should be noted in that TFB article is that they service 4 to 5 times as many AKs than M4s, and that they've had to rebarrel those same WASRs that they said lasted 80,000+ rounds. They have contradictory statements mingled in with the claims.

If you have to keep servicing the parts 4 to 5 times as much as another design, I doubt that is a good measure of reliability in the design.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 31, 2017, 05:27:33 AM
1moa Ak

Lmfao most of my Ar15s aren't even 1moa.
You lost all credibility, the more you post, the more ignorant you show us that you are.


I honestly don't think you shoot AK's that often. I'm being honest in that assessment judging by your statements. There's the video right there above from Tim at Military Arms Channel shooting a Polish Radom Beryl 5.56 AK getting 1 MOA group off a cold bore. Now that's impressive. For me personally I shoot around 2 MOA give or take with 5.56 or 5.45 AK's and that is pretty good. Now my AKM's, they shoot around 3-4MOA overall.



What should be noted in that TFB article is that they service 4 to 5 times as many AKs than M4s, and that they've had to rebarrel those same WASRs that they said lasted 80,000+ rounds. They have contradictory statements mingled in with the claims.

If you have to keep servicing the parts 4 to 5 times as much as another design, I doubt that is a good measure of reliability in the design.



They service the AK's more often than AR's, cleaning them- because they rent out the AK's more often than AR's. They do not give customers dirty rifles essentially. They re-barrel only if the rifles keyhole which generally they said is not before the trunnion cracks which is around 80K-100K rounds. They go into great detail about this if you read the link I've enclosed below.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ak-47/AK-abuse-update-on-Page-11-/64-159106/ (https://www.ar15.com/forums/ak-47/AK-abuse-update-on-Page-11-/64-159106/)


Here's a quote from Henderson Defense on Page 3 of that thread:

"This WASR was put on the line back on 16 OCT 12 and the last cleaning was 21 MAY 15. One of the RSO's noticed that a primer was punctured so he took the weapon off the line for an inspection. The RSO grabbed the "no go" gauge and when it closed on it, he tagged the weapon for the armorer. The armorer ran a "field" headspace gauge through it and it swallowed it no problem. The maintenance log shows that it had a headspace issue last September and that a new bolt was installed and brought back into spec. This weapon easily has 100,000 rounds through it and the barrel still does not keyhole but the headspace could not be brought back into spec with any of the bolts (we have a bin of 20+ new bolts). The best we could get out of a new bolt was not closing on a "no go" gauge. This weapon has a detailed history and other than the bolt replacement, it received a new furniture set in JUL 13.

So today it's coming off the line until we install a new barrel.

Here's where we are at with a standard WASR after two and half years on the line...

- The trunion and the receiver show no signs of wear or fatiuge at this point.
- No stress cracks can be seen on the upper rails or at the rivets.
- Bullets do not keyhole."

 End quote.


That's impressive, WASR AKM, 100K rounds downrange on full auto- not keyholing yet but finally getting re-barreled due to headspace concerns. 



7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 05:43:51 AM
Shooting one small group doesnt mean the gun is a 1 moa gun.  Tim has said that himself.
Ya, I've shot a couple 3 inch groups with my AKs, but that happens about 5% of the time.  The other 95% of the groups are about 5MOA.  It's called cherry picking, Rob does it too. 
It's a dishonest service to the gun community.

Cheap factory ammo is not capable of that kind of accuracy, especially steel case crap.
The more you talk, the more uneducated you show yourself to be.

I wish you understood how much of an asshat you are making yourself out to be.  I'm sure those with high IQs who are well educated completely distance themselves from these kind of ******ed threads.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 05:47:33 AM
What should be noted in that TFB article is that they service 4 to 5 times as many AKs than M4s, and that they've had to rebarrel those same WASRs that they said lasted 80,000+ rounds. They have contradictory statements mingled in with the claims.

If you have to keep servicing the parts 4 to 5 times as much as another design, I doubt that is a good measure of reliability in the design.




It's all a bunch of bullshhit. 
They charge rich people out the ass to shoot their MGs. 
Some guy I knew paid a couple hundred bucks to blast through just a couple mags there.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 31, 2017, 06:18:38 AM
Shooting one small group doesnt mean the gun is a 1 moa gun.  Tim has said that himself.
Ya, I've shot a couple 3 inch groups with my AKs, but that happens about 5% of the time.  The other 95% of the groups are about 5MOA.  It's called cherry picking, Rob does it too.  
It's a dishonest service to the gun community.

Cheap factory ammo is not capable of that kind of accuracy, especially steel case crap.
The more you talk, the more uneducated you show yourself to be.

I wish you understood how much of an asshat you are making yourself out to be.  I'm sure those with high IQs who are well educated completely distance themselves from these kind of ******ed threads.


Video evidence shows otherwise- the AK can be an accurate rifle in some cases. I run my SLR 106's with brass cased ammo and my 74's with mil surp- so not sure what else to tell you. We haven't built a rifle in Western civilization that will outperform the AK in terms of shear reliability and durability. However I'd welcome that level of reliability and durability on other rifle systems if it can be achieved.


7n6




Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: xpdchief on August 31, 2017, 07:58:48 AM
Let me put this entire discussion to rest.  I have real world experience, not the hypothetical rhetoric that is being espoused.
NOTHING BEATS A TAVOR!  PERIOD!

I live in an oceanfront home, at the edge of a tropical jungle, at the foot of an active volcano adjacent to a snow capped mountain.  Until the advent of the Tavor I used to wake up in the morning and go spear fishing with my spear gun.  I have since relegated my spear gun to the supply closet and exclusively use my Tavor.  I sometimes shoot 6 or 7 fish a day (100 yards minimum) without any problems.

Unable to store my Tavor in the house (my wife doesn't like guns), I bury my Tavor in the muddy marshes of the jungle next to my house after each use.  Some day, I suppose I'm going to have to clean it, but so far I'm good to go (7 billions rounds and not one hiccup).

Being the klutz I am, one day while hiking along the rim of the volcano I dropped my Tavor in the molten lava, I reached into the lava and retrieved my Tavor, not a scratch on it.    

Lastly, back in February of this year I wanted to go snow boarding on the snow capped mountain that is adjacent to the volcano leading to the jungle next to my home, when I realized that my snow board was broken.  Not to be disappointed, I grabbed my trusty Tavor and enjoyed a beautiful afternoon on the soft white powder of the snow capped mountain snowtavoring.

Oh yeah, it makes for a great back scratcher too!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on August 31, 2017, 01:18:41 PM
7n6. I'm going to bow out of this thread, just because I don't see a damn point in it anymore. Clearly, you won't be swayed. Good luck with your AKs.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: INV136 on August 31, 2017, 02:40:11 PM
If you're comparing gas piston firearms to direct impingement rifles like the M16/M4 then you have a valid point. Most all European rifles use the gas piston which is inherently more reliable than any direct impingement design. The problem our military has regarding weapons adoption is not in the testing, it is in the personnel who have the authority to make the selection. These individuals usually make their selection decisions based, not on the testing results, but, on irrelevant and generally "political" reasons which preclude a selection based on the best, most reliable, most accurate weapon.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on August 31, 2017, 03:44:32 PM
7n6. I'm going to bow out of this thread, just because I don't see a damn point in it anymore. Clearly, you won't be swayed. Good luck with your AKs.

I was pointing out basically that we haven't progressed in firearms manufacturing to produce a modern rifle as reliable and durable as a seventy year old design. That needs to change. We need to evolve our engineering such that the first primary function of a firearm is to fire when needed and run even in adverse conditions. If the weapon is half submerged, sandy, muddy, accidentally dropped scaling a building, frozen, wet- the damn thing just needs to run. The major components should have minimum 25K round intervals before requiring replacement with exception for high wear items like springs or extractors. We just need a better designed rifle is all.




If you're comparing gas piston firearms to direct impingement rifles like the M16/M4 then you have a valid point. Most all European rifles use the gas piston which is inherently more reliable than any direct impingement design. The problem our military has regarding weapons adoption is not in the testing, it is in the personnel who have the authority to make the selection. These individuals usually make their selection decisions based, not on the testing results, but, on irrelevant and generally "political" reasons which preclude a selection based on the best, most reliable, most accurate weapon.

Agreed. The last thing we need is maintenance queens and environmentally sensitive rifles especially if our troops ever found themselves fighting in a Frozen Chosin or Battle of the Bulge situation again.

Just my .02,


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 31, 2017, 05:49:30 PM
Let me put this entire discussion to rest.  I have real world experience, not the hypothetical rhetoric that is being espoused.
NOTHING BEATS A TAVOR!  PERIOD!

I live in an oceanfront home, at the edge of a tropical jungle, at the foot of an active volcano adjacent to a snow capped mountain.  Until the advent of the Tavor I used to wake up in the morning and go spear fishing with my spear gun.  I have since relegated by spear gun to the supply closet and exclusively use my Tavor.  I sometimes shoot 6 or 7 fish a day (100 yards minimum) without any problems.

Unable to store my Tavor in the house (my wife doesn't like guns), I bury my Tavor in the muddy marshes of the jungle next to my house after each use.  Some day I suppose I'm going to have to clean it, but so far I'm good to go (7 billions rounds and not one hiccup).

Being the klutz I am, one day while hiking along the rim of the volcano I dropped my Tavor in the molten lava, I reached into the lava and retrieved my Tavor, not a scratch on it.   

Lastly, back in February of this year I wanted to go snow boarding on the snow capped mountain that is adjacent to the volcano leading to the jungle next to my home, when I realized that my snow board was broken.  Not to be disappointed I grabbed my trusty Tavor and enjoyed a beautiful afternoon on the soft white powder of the snow capped mountain snowtavoring.

Oh yeah, it makes for a great back scratcher too!


Best thing I have read all week.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 31, 2017, 07:59:45 PM
I had a total sample size of three SIG 556 Classic's. My assessment, there isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG 55X and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on a Swiss one. I almost bought one of the "Black Special" SIG 550's but it was still a heavy design that just didn't do anything for me.  

The "Specials" were never imported into the US; I've seen them in Canada, but not the US. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 02, 2017, 01:03:04 AM
I had a total sample size of three SIG 556 Classic's. My assessment, there isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG 55X and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on a Swiss one. I almost bought one of the "Black Special" SIG 550's but it was still a heavy design that just didn't do anything for me.  

The "Specials" were never imported into the US; I've seen them in Canada, but not the US. 


One was on Gunbroker about a year ago for $8K.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 02, 2017, 01:31:47 AM
I had a total sample size of three SIG 556 Classic's. My assessment, there isn't enough of a design difference between a real SIG 55X and some US SIG Classic model to warrant the extra money spent on a Swiss one. I almost bought one of the "Black Special" SIG 550's but it was still a heavy design that just didn't do anything for me.  

The "Specials" were never imported into the US; I've seen them in Canada, but not the US. 


One was on Gunbroker about a year ago for $8K.


7n6

It most likely wasn't in the US legally; the 550 was barred from importation in 1989 and the "Specials" didn't come about until the late 90s or ~2001 or so.  Given that, I can't see how it was legally imported or SIG would have done so given the market.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 02, 2017, 03:54:54 AM
I believe there is someone making a proper clone of the sigs for sale right now.  Cant remember who, but I know a bunch of guys have been buying these clones lately and have been really happy.  I believe they are '' pistols '' with the 10'' barrel or about that size.  I think someone is making the receivers stateside or something.  Ill see if I can find a link at some point.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 02, 2017, 02:47:28 PM


It most likely wasn't in the US legally; the 550 was barred from importation in 1989 and the "Specials" didn't come about until the late 90s or ~2001 or so.  Given that, I can't see how it was legally imported or SIG would have done so given the market.


They would not be selling it on an open auction board like gunbroker for that kind of money if it wasn't legal. It was in fact a SIG 550 Black Special- all original, cursive gold writing and was just under $8K. Maybe a dealer imported it and then later decided to sell it. Kind of like those SIG 551-2's or Steyr AUG special receivers that they decided to sell off to the public that were imported for police departments.



I believe there is someone making a proper clone of the sigs for sale right now.  Cant remember who, but I know a bunch of guys have been buying these clones lately and have been really happy.  I believe they are '' pistols '' with the 10'' barrel or about that size.  I think someone is making the receivers stateside or something.  Ill see if I can find a link at some point.


Those ain't clones, those SIG 551 and 553 pistols with alloy lowers are legit Swiss guns. M&M which is Colorado Gun sales and later SIG NH brought in the SIG 553's a couple years ago. Then this summer JDI Armory brought in fifty of the 551's.





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Glorfindel on September 02, 2017, 05:57:08 PM
Let me put this entire discussion to rest.  I have real world experience, not the hypothetical rhetoric that is being espoused.
NOTHING BEATS A TAVOR!  PERIOD!

I live in an oceanfront home, at the edge of a tropical jungle, at the foot of an active volcano adjacent to a snow capped mountain.  Until the advent of the Tavor I used to wake up in the morning and go spear fishing with my spear gun.  I have since relegated my spear gun to the supply closet and exclusively use my Tavor.  I sometimes shoot 6 or 7 fish a day (100 yards minimum) without any problems.

Unable to store my Tavor in the house (my wife doesn't like guns), I bury my Tavor in the muddy marshes of the jungle next to my house after each use.  Some day, I suppose I'm going to have to clean it, but so far I'm good to go (7 billions rounds and not one hiccup).

Being the klutz I am, one day while hiking along the rim of the volcano I dropped my Tavor in the molten lava, I reached into the lava and retrieved my Tavor, not a scratch on it.    

Lastly, back in February of this year I wanted to go snow boarding on the snow capped mountain that is adjacent to the volcano leading to the jungle next to my home, when I realized that my snow board was broken.  Not to be disappointed, I grabbed my trusty Tavor and enjoyed a beautiful afternoon on the soft white powder of the snow capped mountain snowtavoring.

Oh yeah, it makes for a great back scratcher too!

Snowtavoring! Ha!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 02, 2017, 11:39:58 PM


It most likely wasn't in the US legally; the 550 was barred from importation in 1989 and the "Specials" didn't come about until the late 90s or ~2001 or so.  Given that, I can't see how it was legally imported or SIG would have done so given the market.


They would not be selling it on an open auction board like gunbroker for that kind of money if it wasn't legal. It was in fact a SIG 550 Black Special- all original, cursive gold writing and was just under $8K. Maybe a dealer imported it and then later decided to sell it. Kind of like those SIG 551-2's or Steyr AUG special receivers that they decided to sell off to the public that were imported for police departments.

Please tell me how a dealer imported a rifle that was on the "banned from import" list.  The Black Special was developed post 89 for the civilian market in Europe and other countries where they could be imported.  Only about 500-600 of the 550-1 and 550-2, both with green stocks and military grey-green receiver coating were imported.  As for selling it on GunBroker, for any amount of money, most people are unaware of what was and wasn't imported or allowed to be imported, and I've heard from more than one person that the end of the AWB meant that they could have anything again.  The Specials were specific models and not built off spare receivers that someone happened to have stashed away for a rainy day; they were new guns from SwissArms.

Whoever sold it and whoever bought it were lucky someone with a badge and some knowledge about what was imported didn't see the auction, and the seller suckered the buyer. 

If you can show me where a Black Special was imported *prior* to the 1989 ban going into effect, I'll retract this.  But according to the ATF it never happened.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 03, 2017, 12:43:55 PM

Please tell me how a dealer imported a rifle that was on the "banned from import" list.  The Black Special was developed post 89 for the civilian market in Europe and other countries where they could be imported.  Only about 500-600 of the 550-1 and 550-2, both with green stocks and military grey-green receiver coating were imported.  As for selling it on GunBroker, for any amount of money, most people are unaware of what was and wasn't imported or allowed to be imported, and I've heard from more than one person that the end of the AWB meant that they could have anything again.  The Specials were specific models and not built off spare receivers that someone happened to have stashed away for a rainy day; they were new guns from SwissArms.

Whoever sold it and whoever bought it were lucky someone with a badge and some knowledge about what was imported didn't see the auction, and the seller suckered the buyer.  

If you can show me where a Black Special was imported *prior* to the 1989 ban going into effect, I'll retract this.  But according to the ATF it never happened.




Retract what exactly? There was a SIG 550 Black Special for sale on gunbroker about a year ago but I have no idea how it got here.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 03, 2017, 07:03:47 PM

Please tell me how a dealer imported a rifle that was on the "banned from import" list.  The Black Special was developed post 89 for the civilian market in Europe and other countries where they could be imported.  Only about 500-600 of the 550-1 and 550-2, both with green stocks and military grey-green receiver coating were imported.  As for selling it on GunBroker, for any amount of money, most people are unaware of what was and wasn't imported or allowed to be imported, and I've heard from more than one person that the end of the AWB meant that they could have anything again.  The Specials were specific models and not built off spare receivers that someone happened to have stashed away for a rainy day; they were new guns from SwissArms.

Whoever sold it and whoever bought it were lucky someone with a badge and some knowledge about what was imported didn't see the auction, and the seller suckered the buyer.  

If you can show me where a Black Special was imported *prior* to the 1989 ban going into effect, I'll retract this.  But according to the ATF it never happened.




Retract what exactly? There was a SIG 550 Black Special for sale on gunbroker about a year ago but I have no idea how it got here.


7n6

You seemed to want to use that as evidence that they were A:  imported into the US and B: that the specific rifle posted was legally in the US.  I said no to both. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 03, 2017, 09:56:02 PM

You seemed to want to use that as evidence that they were A:  imported into the US and B: that the specific rifle posted was legally in the US.  I said no to both.  


I'll be honest, I don't care at all- I'm just telling you I saw one for sale and somehow we got off topic. Either way, it doesn't meet my requirements for a 5.56 rifle that can fire underwater and survive a ten foot drop test. So far the only rifles that meet that criteria are AK's chambered in 5.56 unfortunately.

7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 04, 2017, 12:54:58 AM

You seemed to want to use that as evidence that they were A:  imported into the US and B: that the specific rifle posted was legally in the US.  I said no to both. 


I'll be honest, I don't care at all- I'm just telling you I saw one for sale and somehow we got off topic. Either way, it doesn't meet my requirements for a 5.56 rifle that can fire underwater and survive a ten foot drop test. So far the only rifles that meet that criteria are AK's chambered in 5.56 unfortunately.

7n6


The sigs gas tube and gas block has more vents than an ak gas tube.  It bleeds excess gas more efficiently.  It was designed to bleed off excess gas to prevent excess pressure spikes.  It also has an adjustable gas block.
The sigs action would withstand less overpressure from being fired underwater, therefor making it safer than an AK with over pressured situations. 

I think the reciever would hold up to drops better as well do to its construction, but this in regards to drops is my opinion.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 04, 2017, 01:00:11 AM
" As the piston is driven back, the gas port and the L-shaped channel move out of alignment, cutting off the supply of gas to the cylinder. Surplus gas and powder residues are evacuated through an exhaust port in the gas cylinder. This system ensures that only the precise volume of gas required to overcome the mass and resistance of the rifle's moving assembly is admitted from the barrel. The manually adjustable gas valve has two settings, one for normal operation, and the second setting for use in the presence of heavy fouling or icing."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550



The welds also make the reciever stronger, and the barrel is of the same quality as an AK barrel.  However the Sigs are significantly more accurate.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: ttarp on September 04, 2017, 01:21:39 AM
The subject of the video isn't the rifle, however a Sig 550(variant?) can clearly be seen shooting underwater without any obvious adverse effects.  Perhaps your drop test is where the Sig doesn't match up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzm_yyl13yo


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 04, 2017, 01:57:07 AM
The subject of the video isn't the rifle, however a Sig 550(variant?) can clearly be seen shooting underwater without any obvious adverse effects.  Perhaps your drop test is where the Sig doesn't match up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzm_yyl13yo

I think it's more an issue of it doesn't match up to 7n6's version of reality.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 04, 2017, 10:06:12 AM
" As the piston is driven back, the gas port and the L-shaped channel move out of alignment, cutting off the supply of gas to the cylinder. Surplus gas and powder residues are evacuated through an exhaust port in the gas cylinder. This system ensures that only the precise volume of gas required to overcome the mass and resistance of the rifle's moving assembly is admitted from the barrel. The manually adjustable gas valve has two settings, one for normal operation, and the second setting for use in the presence of heavy fouling or icing."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550



The welds also make the reciever stronger, and the barrel is of the same quality as an AK barrel.  However the Sigs are significantly more accurate.


I actually researched this and found an article a while ago about a guy that wanted to test his SIG 551 underwater before getting it re-barreled. Unfortunately the barrel bulged at the thinnest point right before the machined in flash hider and actually had spiderweb like cracks in the bulge. I don't know if it could have taken a few more rounds without having issues. If I can find the article I'll post it. I've seen that video of the guy firing the SIG at himself but he only fires one round so not certain either way. 

As far as accuracy, I wouldn't say a SIG is significantly more accurate than other 5.56 AK's which are already around 2 MOA guns as is. I imagine the SIG might be slightly more accurate but a properly headspaced hammer forged chrome lined barrel is still going to be fairly accurate- at least out of a cold bore. That is why I linked that video earlier of that Polish Archer Beryl 96 shooting just over 1 MOA groups. I also speculate that the SIG's buttstock wouldn't hold up well to a drop. It may, but I wouldn't be certain without seeing it. Either way, SIG's aren't even readily available so they wouldn't make an appropriate replacement for existing AR's and such. Which is what I'm looking to do in the long run. I have SLR 106's but was essentially looking at this thinking- if I sell these then what can replace them that's equally as durable? Not much I'm afraid. I already Steyr AUG's and AR's like I mentioned but I think for me personally, I'll probably figure out a way to thin the herd while still retaining the 106's. Simply, we don't build weapons to the AK durability levels unfortunately.   

7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 04, 2017, 02:29:04 PM
7n6 you are so full of s*** it's ridiculous.

Sig barrels are cold hammer forged and chrome lined, using the same metals that AK barrels are.  They even have similar profiles.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion you have to stop making s*** up as you go.  Everything you post is pure conjecture and it's really annoying.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 04, 2017, 02:58:36 PM
The subject of the video isn't the rifle, however a Sig 550(variant?) can clearly be seen shooting underwater without any obvious adverse effects.  Perhaps your drop test is where the Sig doesn't match up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzm_yyl13yo

I think it's more an issue of it doesn't match up to 7n6's version of reality.

The guy just sits here and makes up ******ed things as he goes.
He has gone full ******.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 04, 2017, 03:05:10 PM
" As the piston is driven back, the gas port and the L-shaped channel move out of alignment, cutting off the supply of gas to the cylinder. Surplus gas and powder residues are evacuated through an exhaust port in the gas cylinder. This system ensures that only the precise volume of gas required to overcome the mass and resistance of the rifle's moving assembly is admitted from the barrel. The manually adjustable gas valve has two settings, one for normal operation, and the second setting for use in the presence of heavy fouling or icing."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550



The welds also make the reciever stronger, and the barrel is of the same quality as an AK barrel.  However the Sigs are significantly more accurate.


I actually researched this and found an article a while ago about a guy that wanted to test his SIG 551 underwater before getting it re-barreled. Unfortunately the barrel bulged at the thinnest point right before the machined in flash hider and actually had spiderweb like cracks in the bulge. I don't know if it could have taken a few more rounds without having issues. If I can find the article I'll post it. I've seen that video of the guy firing the SIG at himself but he only fires one round so not certain either way. 

As far as accuracy, I wouldn't say a SIG is significantly more accurate than other 5.56 AK's which are already around 2 MOA guns as is. I imagine the SIG might be slightly more accurate but a properly headspaced hammer forged chrome lined barrel is still going to be fairly accurate- at least out of a cold bore. That is why I linked that video earlier of that Polish Archer Beryl 96 shooting just over 1 MOA groups. I also speculate that the SIG's buttstock wouldn't hold up well to a drop. It may, but I wouldn't be certain without seeing it. Either way, SIG's aren't even readily available so they wouldn't make an appropriate replacement for existing AR's and such. Which is what I'm looking to do in the long run. I have SLR 106's but was essentially looking at this thinking- if I sell these then what can replace them that's equally as durable? Not much I'm afraid. I already Steyr AUG's and AR's like I mentioned but I think for me personally, I'll probably figure out a way to thin the herd while still retaining the 106's. Simply, we don't build weapons to the AK durability levels unfortunately.   

7n6  

You just proved that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you are completely full of s***.  You do a great job at making a fool of yourself.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 04, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
7n6 you are so full of s*** it's ridiculous.

Sig barrels are cold hammer forged and chrome lined, using the same metals that AK barrels are.  They even have similar profiles.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion you have to stop making s*** up as you go.  Everything you post is pure conjecture and it's really annoying.

Is there anywhere in this discussion where I said that a SIG barrel wasn't hammer forged? The point being as far accuracy goes, as I stated above- a hammer forged chromed lined barrel properly headspaced in 5.56 would yield 2 MOA. Hell I linked a video of a Polish Archer Beryl 96 that was shooting just over 1 MOA- just to prove the point that a properly made barrel will give good accuracy.





You just proved that you have no idea what you're talking about, and that you are completely full of s***.  You do a great job at making a fool of yourself.



How about pointing exactly what part you disagree with.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 04, 2017, 04:40:10 PM
Alright, can you guys chill out a bit with the pissing match? Especially you, Rabbit. Each side has made valid, as well as questionable, claims in this argument. This is largely a topic of personal preferences in the end, no need to get heated because of that.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 04, 2017, 08:01:44 PM
Deleted.  Read next.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 04, 2017, 08:06:56 PM
Hey RabbitSlayer, I have 7n6's back.  He has stayed cordial through this entire thread while you act like a typical "Gun Forum Keyboard Comando", using curse words and the word "******ed".  If you have ever been around a family that you care about that has a person with this condition you probably would not use it.  Does it make you feel like a big man to act this way?  I think you have made yourself look very Little.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 07, 2017, 12:55:39 PM
InRange TV has released another mud test of AK's. This time they used the best versions you can get in the U.S.

https://www.full30.com/video/0275541f784b38caca67c2da160d382d (https://www.full30.com/video/0275541f784b38caca67c2da160d382d)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 07, 2017, 04:24:39 PM
Hey RabbitSlayer, I have 7n6's back.  He has stayed cordial through this entire thread while you act like a typical "Gun Forum Keyboard Comando", using curse words and the word "******ed".  If you have ever been around a family that you care about that has a person with this condition you probably would not use it.  Does it make you feel like a big man to act this way?  I think you have made yourself look very Little.


7n6 has spewed nothing but conjecture and BS; I don't care if he is nicely spewing BS, it's still BS.  In my opinion lying to further your point is much worse than using ''offensive'' words.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 08, 2017, 12:29:57 AM
InRange TV has released another mud test of AK's. This time they used the best versions you can get in the U.S.

https://www.full30.com/video/0275541f784b38caca67c2da160d382d (https://www.full30.com/video/0275541f784b38caca67c2da160d382d)

The safety features worked- if the bolt can't fully go into battery it won't fire. It's also the reason the bolt carrier has a little tail on the back- to keep the hammer from striking the firing pin if the bolt doesn't fully go into battery.

The difference being if you watched the earlier video with the guy throwing the three rifles into the little swamp area- is that all three were compromised but the AK ran fine while the Tavor and AR choked. The reason, the AK has more area around the internals for debris.

Look at the video I linked where they filled the rear of the AK 74 receiver with sand- and it fired because the sand didn't keep the hammer from resetting nor keep the bolt from locking. All I'm saying, is to take those AK features; a piston with the reliability to fire underwater, the durability to survive a decent drop test along with room around the internals to mitigate debris- then combine that with a sealed system like an AR and you'd create just about the best rifle yet.

 


7n6 has spewed nothing but conjecture and BS; I don't care if he is nicely spewing BS, it's still BS.  In my opinion lying to further your point is much worse than using ''offensive'' words.


You haven't been able to point to one single thing I've stated with any evidence to the contrary.



Anyway in closing some of my favorite videos;

AK buried 18 years, rusted shut, brought back to life with a little oil then fired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgrJElGOMMg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgrJElGOMMg)

AK that was shot full of holes then fired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIGMCiFK5yc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIGMCiFK5yc)

7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 08, 2017, 09:34:42 AM
Hey RabbitSlayer, I have 7n6's back.  He has stayed cordial through this entire thread while you act like a typical "Gun Forum Keyboard Comando", using curse words and the word "******ed".  If you have ever been around a family that you care about that has a person with this condition you probably would not use it.  Does it make you feel like a big man to act this way?  I think you have made yourself look very Little.


7n6 has spewed nothing but conjecture and BS; I don't care if he is nicely spewing BS, it's still BS.  In my opinion lying to further your point is much worse than using ''offensive'' words.



Hello Little Man.  So now you can read peoples minds through a computer and tell if they are lying.  Wow, you are special.  I have read many of your post's and you seem to love to be offensive.  Especially using "******ed", that's really low.  Is it nice living in your "OWN" delusional world judging others?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: ttarp on September 08, 2017, 10:18:08 AM
Yawn*, did you even read Sensei's post?  7N6 has done a very good job of not taking the bait(though the topic might be considered bait) and staying civil, whats the sense of getting into a p!$$!#% match now?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 08, 2017, 04:51:48 PM
Hey RabbitSlayer, I have 7n6's back.  He has stayed cordial through this entire thread while you act like a typical "Gun Forum Keyboard Comando", using curse words and the word "******ed".  If you have ever been around a family that you care about that has a person with this condition you probably would not use it.  Does it make you feel like a big man to act this way?  I think you have made yourself look very Little.


7n6 has spewed nothing but conjecture and BS; I don't care if he is nicely spewing BS, it's still BS.  In my opinion lying to further your point is much worse than using ''offensive'' words.



Hello Little Man.  So now you can read peoples minds through a computer and tell if they are lying.  Wow, you are special.  I have read many of your post's and you seem to love to be offensive.  Especially using "******ed", that's really low.  Is it nice living in your "OWN" delusional world judging others?

Lol, you're so offended.  Sorry but, I'm not a snowflake so calling me '' little man '' doesn't offend me.  I just find it funny you are so offended by a word which has been used in medical literature for at least 100 years.  As far as family, I had a sister-in-law who was handicap, note I called her handicap and not ******ed.  I don't know anyone that goes around calling handicap people ******ed.  However, if a person who is not handicap acts very dumb, it is pretty common to call them ******ed.  It must suck to be so offended by simple things like that.

You just went and looked for a reason to be offended, are you also a leftie?

Definition

''  re·tard·ed
rəˈtärdəd/Submit
adjective
datedoffensive
less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.
informaloffensive
very foolish or stupid.
"in retrospect, it was a totally ******ed idea"  ''

By that definition the OP was indeed acting ******ed, if you don't understand why take a moment to contemplate the relevancy of this analogy.


Anyone who knows a bit about the various weapons being discussed is well aware that 7n6 has been making things up as he goes along.  If you read 7n6's posts it is blatantly obvious he doesn't know what he is talking about.  He can post all the fantasy he wants but I am not obligated to go along with BS posts.  Even if I took the time to point out every one of his silly statements as non-factual, he would disregard them.  It is much more simple to call him on his BS, by simply stating it is BS, that way he becomes aware people here know his posts are BS.

There isn't any rule that says I need to be respectful to those who lie and spread misinformation.  In fact, I find it very disrespectful to post non-factual statements about various other weapons.  It is a disservice to forums in general.  This is often the reason people regurgitate false information so much.

I would rather be known as Vulgar than be known as a liar.

Please, continue to be offended and attack me for using the word ******, it makes you look very intelligent, I find it amusing.  This conversation had nothing to do with you, but you had to go out of your way to be offended.

  If you do have family that is indeed handicap, I am sorry, however it is no reason to get extremely offended every time you hear someone use the word ******, especially if the person who is using that word never implied it towards you or your family.  We live in a world where people are free to discuss things in the manner they feel fit.  I personally feel it is a waste of time to try and have intelligent conversation with people who prove themselves to not be intelligent or capable of reasonable discussion.  When such a situation arises it is much more efficient to be completely blunt with that person. 



In regards to the OP.  I love AK's, I own and have owned a bunch of them.  However I see them for the tools they are, and have no misconceptions about them.  I own many other long stroke piston driven rifles with space in the receiver.  I just have to draw a line in the discussion when I see you making things up as you go along to further your agenda.  I'm not a fanboy of one type of firearm, I own many and see disadvantages, and advantages of the various types.  Believe it or not, there are a lot of guns that meet your critera of being able to be dropped and shot underwater.  The AK design is a great design, but it is far from being the most effective shoulder fired weapon available.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 08, 2017, 05:11:43 PM
Deleted.  Read next.

*****  :LOL


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: xpdchief on September 08, 2017, 07:31:21 PM
Moderator please!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 08, 2017, 09:26:01 PM

By that definition the OP was indeed acting ******ed, if you don't understand why take a moment to contemplate the relevancy of this analogy.


Anyone who knows a bit about the various weapons being discussed is well aware that 7n6 has been making things up as he goes along.  If you read 7n6's posts it is blatantly obvious he doesn't know what he is talking about.  He can post all the fantasy he wants but I am not obligated to go along with BS posts.  Even if I took the time to point out every one of his silly statements as non-factual, he would disregard them.  It is much more simple to call him on his BS, by simply stating it is BS, that way he becomes aware people here know his posts are BS.

There isn't any rule that says I need to be respectful to those who lie and spread misinformation.  In fact, I find it very disrespectful to post non-factual statements about various other weapons.  It is a disservice to forums in general.  This is often the reason people regurgitate false information so much.

I would rather be known as Vulgar than be known as a liar.





I have no problem if you may disagree with some of the findings I've posted but at least counter those notions with some sense of dignity to at least formulate an opinion backed by some factual evidence. Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years. Those are facts, they are on the videos I've posted. Hell we've been fighting third world untrained cave dwellers for nearly two decades fielding thirty to fifty year old Kalashnikov variants which is astounding. I started this thread simply searching for an alternative to Kalashnikov rifles. A rifle perhaps that is more updated, more ergonomic but on par with those certain reliable qualities that make the AK the most widely distributed firearm on the planet.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 08, 2017, 09:31:27 PM
When you make non-factual statements about other firearms, it discredits you; and basically forfeits your side of the argument by default.
You would be better off saying either
A.  I don't/ did not know that.
or
B. Researching the firearm in question in order to formulate a factual response.


Your refusal to do so made not only myself but others have no interest in having an in depth conversation about this subject. 

You seem like a cool guy, and I personally have nothing against you.  This is only a conversation and nothing more from my point of view.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 08, 2017, 09:40:46 PM
When you make non-factual statements about other firearms, it discredits you; and basically forfeits your side of the argument by default.
You would be better off saying either
A.  I don't/ did not know that.
or
B. Researching the firearm in question in order to formulate a factual response.


Your refusal to do so made not only myself but others have no interest in having an in depth conversation about this subject.  

You seem like a cool guy, and I personally have nothing against you.  This is only a conversation and nothing more from my point of view.


Well I still don't know what specific comments I made about other weapon systems that is disagreeable. As I stated, I own a well rounded collection already and have run those weapons through their paces.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 08, 2017, 09:47:15 PM
BTW.

Nobody is telling you not to shoot AK's.   Multiple times I and others have stated that if you like them, keep shooting them.
I personally like AK's, I own many of them.  Currently working on a 7.62 Saiga 107CR type build.  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 08, 2017, 10:53:53 PM
BTW.

Nobody is telling you not to shoot AK's.   Multiple times I and others have stated that if you like them, keep shooting them.
I personally like AK's, I own many of them.  Currently working on a 7.62 Saiga 107CR type build.  

Sounds like a nice build.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 09, 2017, 03:19:47 PM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 09, 2017, 09:32:35 PM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 09, 2017, 09:43:48 PM
Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 09, 2017, 09:45:33 PM
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

Dude...really?  We can disagree, but let's not make it personal to the point where there's no chance of reconciliation.  Don't be a Kender*...



* an annoying race of halflings (hobbits) from the Dragonlance world that have a unique ability to taunt and anger people  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender_(Dragonlance)#Taunting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender_(Dragonlance)#Taunting)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 09, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.
^ This. Anecdotal instances of performance.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 10, 2017, 02:38:02 AM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 10, 2017, 03:18:56 AM
Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.


Anything tested by the military can be subjective. For instance when they first tested the M4 against the HK 416 they were counting the three round burst cog not resetting as failures in order to promote the 416. As well as the fact that the Colt rifles used for the test were essentially worn out older weapons before that test even began. So Colt decided to have their rifles tested independently with new firearms later in the fall with people who understood how the burst mechanism worked. Suddenly Colt had well over 60% drop in malfunctions placing them on par with the HK 416.


Here is some military testing- no bias at all. LOL.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM)


7n6





Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 10, 2017, 07:13:46 PM
Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.

Anything tested by the military can be subjective. For instance when they first tested the M4 against the HK 416 they were counting the three round burst cog not resetting as failures in order to promote the 416. As well as the fact that the Colt rifles used for the test were essentially worn out older weapons before that test even began. So Colt decided to have their rifles tested independently with new firearms later in the fall with people who understood how the burst mechanism worked. Suddenly Colt had well over 60% drop in malfunctions placing them on par with the HK 416.

Here is some military testing- no bias at all. LOL.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM)

7n6

You missed the key point of my argument, 7n6; the tests are structured and repeatable.  They're also conducted under controlled conditions so that the test results are valid based on the methodology that is used.

Regarding the M4 v. HK 416 and the 3rd Burst issue, depending on how you want to view it, that could be viewed as a deficiency because the expectation is that when it is set to 3rd burst, you will get 3 rounds fired when the trigger is pulled.  When that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, it could be considered a failure.  The context and metrics of the test need to be considered when viewing the final results.  If the metrics lay out specific criteria and for whatever reason those criteria aren't met, then it can be reasonably viewed as the weapon failing the test.

This isn't to say that the weapon is bad, just that based on the test metrics, the rifle didn't pass.

Dropping your rifle from the third floor, running it over with a truck, shooting it underwater, those are all unscientific tests unless you have documented the "how" (i.e. how the test will be performed, the environmental conditions, etc.) and the metrics for passing/failing.  Simply going all "redneck science" isn't repeatable and IMO, is worthless except for anecdotal discussion.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 10, 2017, 09:01:30 PM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 :LOL


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 10, 2017, 10:45:08 PM
You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I'm beginning to think that being triggered, offended, or intentionally taking things out of context is the new way of showing affection. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 11, 2017, 12:50:54 AM

You missed the key point of my argument, 7n6; the tests are structured and repeatable.  They're also conducted under controlled conditions so that the test results are valid based on the methodology that is used.

Regarding the M4 v. HK 416 and the 3rd Burst issue, depending on how you want to view it, that could be viewed as a deficiency because the expectation is that when it is set to 3rd burst, you will get 3 rounds fired when the trigger is pulled.  When that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, it could be considered a failure.  The context and metrics of the test need to be considered when viewing the final results.  If the metrics lay out specific criteria and for whatever reason those criteria aren't met, then it can be reasonably viewed as the weapon failing the test.

This isn't to say that the weapon is bad, just that based on the test metrics, the rifle didn't pass.

Dropping your rifle from the third floor, running it over with a truck, shooting it underwater, those are all unscientific tests unless you have documented the "how" (i.e. how the test will be performed, the environmental conditions, etc.) and the metrics for passing/failing.  Simply going all "redneck science" isn't repeatable and IMO, is worthless except for anecdotal discussion.


I understand the purpose of using scientific testing to have more metered results. However structured lab tests with firearms especially are often times biased simply because contracts are on the line or the brass wants a new firearm. The weapons are pre-selected by the companies seeking a contract in order to pass those pre-determined tests. The reason I like the redneck type tests is simply because I know those rifles are store bought off the shelf weapons. The backyard type testing is simply done for the sake of curiosity. It isn't scientific but it does a hell of job of highlighting design flaws. 

7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 11, 2017, 01:33:22 AM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 :LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 11, 2017, 01:52:07 AM

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 :LOL

You know, Rabbit. Just because people you know accept that, doesn't mean everyone else has to. Not everyone has to be some machismo-laden hard-ass to get by in life. Ease up on the testosterone.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 11, 2017, 08:16:00 AM
Here's a followup video to InRange TV's mud test of the AR. This time, Karl shows how he cleaned his AK.

https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d (https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 11, 2017, 02:37:48 PM
Here's a followup video to InRange TV's mud test of the AR. This time, Karl shows how he cleaned his AK.

https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d (https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d)


Only downside about that ammo is having to run water through the rifle.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 11, 2017, 05:22:47 PM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 :LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.  

 :LOL  You wouldn't last one single day in my shoes.

Look at yourself and this conversation.   OP was making false statements in regard to this topic about guns, I called him out for making false statements about guns, perhaps in a vulgar manner, but still on topic...
  Then you had to come out with the feelings brigade and just get into a personal pissing match because I used vulgar words.  Really?  Do you get offended and bleed out of your mangina everytime you hear someone use a vulgar word?  Do you wear a manbun and have a ''coexist'' sticker on the back of your subaru?
LuLs go back to your safe space.



Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 11, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
double tap


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 11, 2017, 07:28:00 PM



Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 :LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   :LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 :LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.  

 :LOL  You wouldn't last one single day in my shoes.

Look at yourself and this conversation.   OP was making false statements in regard to this topic about guns, I called him out for making false statements about guns, perhaps in a vulgar manner, but still on topic...
  Then you had to come out with the feelings brigade and just get into a personal pissing match because I used vulgar words.  Really?  Do you get offended and bleed out of your mangina everytime you hear someone use a vulgar word?  Do you wear a manbun and have a ''coexist'' sticker on the back of your subaru?
LuLs go back to your safe space.





You are an amazingly simple little man.  You just keep on hiding behind that key board and continue to get ranker and ranker.  It is really amusing to watch people like you pump themselves up acting tough in cyber space.  I am enjoying it.   :ROFLMAO


Please,  Please keep proving my points.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 11, 2017, 07:47:06 PM
Edit:

I'm done responding to you scstrain out of respect to the other members in this thread.  In reality scstrain I think you're b!tchmade, and I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day I doubt I would have any problems with anyone here in real life.  Ya'll have a nice day.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 11, 2017, 08:53:39 PM
Edit:

I'm done responding to you scstrain out of respect to the other members in this thread.  In reality scstrain I think you're b!tchmade, and I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day I doubt I would have any problems with anyone here in real life.  Ya'll have a nice day.




If you really cared about anyone on this forum you would quit your over the top macho and stop your foolish verbal attacks.  I am not the only one that notices it. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 12, 2017, 12:12:01 AM
I understand the purpose of using scientific testing to have more metered results. However structured lab tests with firearms especially are often times biased simply because contracts are on the line or the brass wants a new firearm. The weapons are pre-selected by the companies seeking a contract in order to pass those pre-determined tests. The reason I like the redneck type tests is simply because I know those rifles are store bought off the shelf weapons. The backyard type testing is simply done for the sake of curiosity. It isn't scientific but it does a hell of job of highlighting design flaws. 

7n6

The tests are done to specific criteria often created by a committee, so don't throw out controlled testing because the metrics and processes don't agree with your opinions.  When you look at military testing, especially when they're testing potential purchases against each other, they need to be done to the letter of the test and in many cases, the vendors can lodge protests if they feel the tests and criteria weren't fair to their product.

Unless the test is repeatable, it's worthless and a waste of time as anything other than an anecdote.

You discuss shooting under water, being dropped, and all sorts of other inane things, yet when you look at the firearm the Tier-1 units are using in the non Russian/Chinese sphere and you'll see almost in every case, some version of the M-16/M-4.  Even in countries where they have a different service rifle - sometimes an AK derivative, they choose the M-16/M-4.  Real world use does not support your position, 7n6.  These are groups that have the resources to use whatever they want, and they aren't choosing the AK.

But...like my dog this afternoon, this is nothing more than going around and around chasing the tail...


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 13, 2017, 03:35:12 PM


The tests are done to specific criteria often created by a committee, so don't throw out controlled testing because the metrics and processes don't agree with your opinions.  When you look at military testing, especially when they're testing potential purchases against each other, they need to be done to the letter of the test and in many cases, the vendors can lodge protests if they feel the tests and criteria weren't fair to their product.

Unless the test is repeatable, it's worthless and a waste of time as anything other than an anecdote.

You discuss shooting under water, being dropped, and all sorts of other inane things, yet when you look at the firearm the Tier-1 units are using in the non Russian/Chinese sphere and you'll see almost in every case, some version of the M-16/M-4.  Even in countries where they have a different service rifle - sometimes an AK derivative, they choose the M-16/M-4.  Real world use does not support your position, 7n6.  These are groups that have the resources to use whatever they want, and they aren't choosing the AK.

But...like my dog this afternoon, this is nothing more than going around and around chasing the tail...


The tests they come up are just some metrics to measure firearms against other but they also eliminate test procedures that would otherwise destroy certain rifles being tested. Example, no over the beach style tests if using M4's, no real drop tests either etc. Doesn't mean that the competitors don't rig weapons being used in order to achieve certain outcomes- as has been shown in the past.

As far as top tier units wanting compatibility of arms with eachother- it's just that, compatibility. If I was heavily supported running a short operation- I'd probably choose the more ergonomic easier to outfit M16 style weapon as well. Especially when that weapon has the supply lines, armorers, support, and accessories running premium ammo etc.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 13, 2017, 07:06:03 PM
The tests they come up are just some metrics to measure firearms against other but they also eliminate test procedures that would otherwise destroy certain rifles being tested. Example, no over the beach style tests if using M4's, no real drop tests either etc. Doesn't mean that the competitors don't rig weapons being used in order to achieve certain outcomes- as has been shown in the past.

So in other words, what you're trying to say without coming out and saying it is that the NATO trials tests are worthless.  Does that sound about right?

I think that every time the SEALs deploy from a sub and make landfall that they validate the M-4 for over the beach work.  They've been working for decades, probably longer than you've been alive, so I think they're pretty well validated.  As for the other tests, drop tests have been done; it's a basic part of reliability testing.

As far as top tier units wanting compatibility of arms with eachother- it's just that, compatibility. If I was heavily supported running a short operation- I'd probably choose the more ergonomic easier to outfit M16 style weapon as well. Especially when that weapon has the supply lines, armorers, support, and accessories running premium ammo etc.

Whoever brought up the word "compatibility"?  I simply stated that when they were given a choice, they chose the AR pattern rifle.  Compatibility may play a part, but I don't think that it's foremost in their minds when they chose a weapon before going over the wire.

You really need to step back and divorce yourself from the biases you're bringing to the table, otherwise you will never be able to make a rational comparison.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 14, 2017, 06:37:06 AM

So in other words, what you're trying to say without coming out and saying it is that the NATO trials tests are worthless.  Does that sound about right?

I think that every time the SEALs deploy from a sub and make landfall that they validate the M-4 for over the beach work.  They've been working for decades, probably longer than you've been alive, so I think they're pretty well validated.  As for the other tests, drop tests have been done; it's a basic part of reliability testing.



Whoever brought up the word "compatibility"?  I simply stated that when they were given a choice, they chose the AR pattern rifle.  Compatibility may play a part, but I don't think that it's foremost in their minds when they chose a weapon before going over the wire.

You really need to step back and divorce yourself from the biases you're bringing to the table, otherwise you will never be able to make a rational comparison.


If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6




Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 14, 2017, 08:15:13 AM
Somebody wake me when this thread is over.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 14, 2017, 12:29:55 PM
If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6

One does not follow, imply, or prove the other.

Here's the bottom line, 7n6; you started the thread looking for validation of your opinion and despite reasoned explanation and examples to the contrary, you still trot out cherry picked and anecdotal, non-repeatable, "tests" and criteria that really don't make any sense.  You then dismiss controlled testing, testing that is actually repeatable and based on established service requirements, and wave them off as "biased".

The only real bias I see here is yours and your desperate need for validation.  We've led your horse to water, but I think that's all we'll do.  Only you can take a drink.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: st381 on September 14, 2017, 04:56:05 PM
I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure.  

Thanks for the humorous read!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 14, 2017, 05:00:12 PM
I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure.  

Thanks for the humorous read!

I'd say it's more like a group of atheists trying to convince a die hard Christian that there is no God. 7n6 is the one with his faith firmly set in his ways.

Definitely have to agree on role appropriate firearms.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: st381 on September 14, 2017, 05:04:00 PM
I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure. 

Thanks for the humorous read!

I'd say it's more like a group of atheists trying to convince a die hard Christian that there is no God. 7n6 is the one with his faith firmly set in his ways.
Fair point🤔


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 14, 2017, 05:36:48 PM
If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6

One does not follow, imply, or prove the other.

Here's the bottom line, 7n6; you started the thread looking for validation of your opinion and despite reasoned explanation and examples to the contrary, you still trot out cherry picked and anecdotal, non-repeatable, "tests" and criteria that really don't make any sense.  You then dismiss controlled testing, testing that is actually repeatable and based on established service requirements, and wave them off as "biased".

The only real bias I see here is yours and your desperate need for validation.  We've led your horse to water, but I think that's all we'll do.  Only you can take a drink.


I don't rule out controlled testing, quite the contrary. However even you have to admit that when they decided to test worn out M4's versus vendor provided 416's- that proves my point that controlled testing can be biased.

Anyway, throughout this thread I simply was looking to find another firearm that can A.) fire underwater and B.) survive a 10 foot or higher drop onto concrete outside of the aging Kalashnikov.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 06:31:22 PM
^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 14, 2017, 06:40:05 PM
^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.


Can you list which rifles specifically?

I haven't seen anything that can survive both the drop test and firing underwater test.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 06:49:16 PM
P.S 7N6

I told you this earlier but I think you over looked it.
I have a Russian Ak that fell off of my truck bed onto the ground muzzle first, landed right on the crown from about 2 feet.   The crown is ruined and the gun can't hit a baseball from 25 feet, groups like 24'' groups at 100 yards now.  I'm going to have to have the barrel removed and have it recrowned.
So I would say my russian ak failed your 10 foot drop test... If I can't hit a human sized target with a rifle at 100 yards, I consider the rifle useless.  

Doesn't matter what kind of gun you have, it's pretty easy to ruin a rifles crown.  

If you think an AK barrel is made out of superior metal than every other rifle design out there, you are sadly mistaken.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 06:49:49 PM
^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.


Can you list which rifles specifically?

I haven't seen anything that can survive both the drop test and firing underwater test.


7n6

I listed several a few pages ago.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 06:52:30 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 14, 2017, 06:54:52 PM
P.S 7N6

I told you this earlier but I think you over looked it.
I have a Russian Ak that fell off of my truck bed onto the ground muzzle first, landed right on the crown from about 2 feet.   The crown is ruined and the gun can't hit a baseball from 25 feet, groups like 24'' groups at 100 yards now.  I'm going to have to have the barrel removed and have it recrowned.
So I would say my russian ak failed your 10 foot drop test... If I can't hit a human sized target with a rifle at 100 yards, I consider the rifle useless.  

Doesn't matter what kind of gun you have, it's pretty easy to ruin a rifles crown.  

If you think an AK barrel is made out of superior metal than every other rifle design out there, you are sadly mistaken.


A damaged crown makes for an inaccurate rifle- that's fairly well known and the reason they make crowning jigs.

Getting back to the topic at hand, can you please list which exact rifles can both; A.) fire underwater repeatedly without damage and B.) survive a ten foot drop onto concrete?

Thanks,


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: st381 on September 14, 2017, 06:57:04 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 14, 2017, 07:07:43 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


I already proved that some 5.56 AK's are 1 MOA guns with the link provided to MAC's Beryl 96 Archer accuracy test. He also has a SAM7 SF in 7.62x39 that shoots 2 MOA- not sure if I linked that or not. Either way, that's not what I came looking for- I already knew that an AK can be accurate with my own experience. 

I came here looking for a modern alternative that can both fire underwater repeatedly and survive a ten foot drop test onto concrete. That's it, that is my criteria for durability and reliability that would make for a suitable alternative. I have not through now eight pages read about any other rifle in existence that can survive both that criteria. As I stated, I am not sure such an alternative even exists and perhaps without that question being answered- has proven what I already knew all along.


7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 07:36:09 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 07:39:22 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


I already proved that some 5.56 AK's are 1 MOA guns with the link provided to MAC's Beryl 96 Archer accuracy test. He also has a SAM7 SF in 7.62x39 that shoots 2 MOA- not sure if I linked that or not. Either way, that's not what I came looking for- I already knew that an AK can be accurate with my own experience. 

I came here looking for a modern alternative that can both fire underwater repeatedly and survive a ten foot drop test onto concrete. That's it, that is my criteria for durability and reliability that would make for a suitable alternative. I have not through now eight pages read about any other rifle in existence that can survive both that criteria. As I stated, I am not sure such an alternative even exists and perhaps without that question being answered- has proven what I already knew all along.


7n6  


Yes many alternatives exist, numerous rifles have been discussed.  You dismissed one because you didn't like the way it '' feels '', and hardly even acknowledged the others.

There are many good reasons why countries that used to supply their armies with AK's have moved on to different guns.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 14, 2017, 07:42:46 PM
Since you like repeating yourself.. I'll repeat myself again.

In regards to some of the rifles discussed that meet your ''standards'' for which a rifle should perform.  You made many false statements about said rifles, which has discredited you from having any validity in this discussion. 
You might as well be screaming the earth is flat.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 14, 2017, 09:12:53 PM
I don't rule out controlled testing, quite the contrary. However even you have to admit that when they decided to test worn out M4's versus vendor provided 416's- that proves my point that controlled testing can be biased.

Anyway, throughout this thread I simply was looking to find another firearm that can A.) fire underwater and B.) survive a 10 foot or higher drop onto concrete outside of the aging Kalashnikov.

7n6

If that was HK's show tests, well, consider the source.  HK has realized that they actually have to produce quality firearms that really are better than what's out there, so when they can't, they rig the test.  However, tests that have been done with quality weapons show the M4 does just fine.

A lot of them can, and have been named in this thread. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: st381 on September 14, 2017, 09:34:25 PM
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..
Good one Goyle! I said in my best Draco Malfoy voice. EDIT** I was responding to the "Never" meme


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 09:26:30 AM

Yes many alternatives exist, numerous rifles have been discussed.  You dismissed one because you didn't like the way it '' feels '', and hardly even acknowledged the others.

There are many good reasons why countries that used to supply their armies with AK's have moved on to different guns.


You haven't named one single rifle that is not an AK that can pass that test the AK can which is; A.) firing underwater repeatedly and B.) being able to survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.




If that was HK's show tests, well, consider the source.  HK has realized that they actually have to produce quality firearms that really are better than what's out there, so when they can't, they rig the test.  However, tests that have been done with quality weapons show the M4 does just fine.

A lot of them can, and have been named in this thread.  

I don't think the HK 416 is necessarily better than the M4 overall- which is already a pretty low bar to reach. They need to make a rifle more durable and reliable than the AK- which is my point of this entire thread. We need a real combat arm, a real assault rifle that can go the distance. So that when we face another Battle of the Bulge or another Frozen Chosin- then we are ready for it.    


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 15, 2017, 09:47:09 AM
Are we done yet?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 12:52:44 PM
Are we done yet?


Not until we force the firearms industry to adopt some basic reliability and durability standards.

7n6

 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 15, 2017, 01:03:32 PM
I meant, "are we done with this thread yet?" I suspect you understood that, yet chose to take it differently.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 15, 2017, 01:53:38 PM

I don't think the...

And this is the root cause of the discussion.  You are relying on personal opinion and bias rather than observed tests in controlled environments to specific and repeatable metrics.  Do you think those idiots who throw their rifles off the roof, drive over them with a truck, or do otherwise stupid things with them are going to show you the failures? 

Pull the NATO test criteria, get an M-4 and an AK and send them to HP White and have them do independent testing and then look at the results.  I think you'll be quite surprised.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 02:27:02 PM


And this is the root cause of the discussion.  You are relying on personal opinion and bias rather than observed tests in controlled environments to specific and repeatable metrics.  Do you think those idiots who throw their rifles off the roof, drive over them with a truck, or do otherwise stupid things with them are going to show you the failures?  

Pull the NATO test criteria, get an M-4 and an AK and send them to HP White and have them do independent testing and then look at the results.  I think you'll be quite surprised.


Can the M4 fire underwater or partially submerged? No. Then no reason for further testing.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 06:46:33 PM
 :LOL


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on September 15, 2017, 06:53:36 PM
Can someone lock this thread? It's practically a roundabout argument that isn't fruitful for anyone.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 15, 2017, 06:55:37 PM
Can the M4 fire underwater or partially submerged? No. Then no reason for further testing.

What's the big deal with asking if the rifle can do something that's meaningless?  Are the Navy SEALs having to deal with zombie sharks to get to their targets now?

Seriously, 7n6, the cogent points you make are completely undermined by the farcical and ludicrous requirements you demand.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 15, 2017, 07:03:12 PM
Can someone lock this thread? It's practically a roundabout argument that isn't fruitful for anyone.

It's our own version of Bart vs. the Hamster...

https://youtu.be/SVBR3mo9RKA (https://youtu.be/SVBR3mo9RKA)


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 07:21:43 PM
Are we done yet?

Which is better
9 vs 45 ?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: xpdchief on September 15, 2017, 07:32:49 PM
Are we done yet?

Which is better
9 vs 45 ?

45, because you would have to own (5) 9's to equal (1) 45!


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 08:10:40 PM
Are we done yet?

Which is better
9 vs 45 ?

45, because you would have to own (5) 9's to equal (1) 45!

5.7x28 vs 300Winmag?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 08:39:52 PM
Can the M4 fire underwater or partially submerged? No. Then no reason for further testing.

What's the big deal with asking if the rifle can do something that's meaningless?  Are the Navy SEALs having to deal with zombie sharks to get to their targets now?

Seriously, 7n6, the cogent points you make are completely undermined by the farcical and ludicrous requirements you demand.


The future is a gas piston modernized weapon.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 15, 2017, 08:41:03 PM
Are we done yet?

Which is better
9 vs 45 ?

45, because you would have to own (5) 9's to equal (1) 45!

5.7x28 vs 300Winmag?

Well, 5.7 times 28 is only 158.6, so that makes 300 better, that is unless you consider smaller to be better.  ;D >:D


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 08:59:46 PM
Are we done yet?

Which is better
9 vs 45 ?

45, because you would have to own (5) 9's to equal (1) 45!

5.7x28 vs 300Winmag?

Well, 5.7 times 28 is only 158.6, so that makes 300 better

This logic in undenyable.  Thank you.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 09:06:01 PM


This logic in undenyable.  Thank you.



I agree.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: EWTHeckman on September 15, 2017, 09:57:55 PM
5.7x28 vs 300Winmag?

Well, 5.7 times 28 is only 158.6, so that makes 300 better, that is unless you consider smaller to be better.  ;D >:D

Correction: 159.6. Wouldn't want to be accused of doing silly logic wrong!  ;D


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 10:19:04 PM
OP...

Glock or 1911?


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 10:29:50 PM
OP...

Glock or 1911?

What's the scenario? I have both- several of both, many several. You forgot Hi Power's, P228's, P220's, Beretta's etc. I like all kinds and revolvers as well, pre-lock of course. Just depends on the situation.

For me personally, if it comes to homeland defense scenario, as in the last weapons that would be in my possession while still alive- I hope I'm holding an M4 carbine with a 1911 sidearm. If it comes to home defense scenario- well, a Glock with a 17rd magazine coupled with a Steyr AUG or perhaps an FN FAL with a Browning Hi Power and a 17 round magazine would suffice. Perhaps a German Mp5 with a German P228, an HK 91 with a German P220, or a Benelli M2 with a Beretta M9, maybe an 870 with a 586 prelock- it all depends on what's going on that day. I like all kinds.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: RabbitSlayer on September 15, 2017, 10:42:29 PM
OP...

Glock or 1911?

What's the scenario? I have both- several of both, many several. You forgot Hi Power's, P228's, P220's, Beretta's etc. I like all kinds and revolvers as well, pre-lock of course. Just depends on the situation.  


For me personally, if it comes to homeland defense scenario, as in the last weapons that would be in my possession while still alive- I hope I'm holding an M4 carbine with a 1911 sidearm. If it comes to home defense scenario- well, a Glock with a 17rd magazine coupled with a Steyr AUG or perhaps an FN FAL with a Browning Hi Power and a 17 round magazine would suffice. Perhaps a German Mp5 with a German P228, an HK 91 with a German P220, or a Benelli M2 with a Beretta M9, maybe an 870 with a 586 prelock- it all depends on what's going on that day. I like all kinds.


7n6


 :o

Wut?  Not an AK?


I prefer the ergos and nice trigger of the 1911, but I mainly carry glocks.  I do CC a sig p238 which is pretty nice, but it will soon be replaced by a g26 I'm thinking.  I've owned tons of different brands and styles of pistols over the years.  I just stick with glocks now for personal reasons, plus I have to qualify on Glocks yearly so I figure I'll just keep myself nice and trained with the tupperware block.. The quals are kind of intense, so I want all my muscle memory to be the same for that main reason.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 15, 2017, 10:48:24 PM


 :o

Wut?  Not an AK?


I prefer the ergos and nice trigger of the 1911, but I mainly carry glocks.  I do CC a sig p238 which is pretty nice, but it will soon be replaced by a g26 I'm thinking.  I've owned tons of different brands and styles of pistols over the years.  I just stick with glocks now for personal reasons, plus I have to qualify on Glocks yearly so I figure I'll just keep myself nice and trained with the tupperware block.. The quals are kind of intense, so I want all my muscle memory to be the same for that main reason.


No way, once SHTF and we are in it for the long haul against some foreign occupation- I'd only carry a 1911 and an M4. It might not be the most reliable combination but it's our combination.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: BoulderTroll on September 17, 2017, 12:56:27 PM
Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.





I have AK's in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62- all of them run better than any other rifles I've owned. I'm just tired of the trade off and can't understand why we can't design something in the modern world equally reliable and robust. I think the AUG is close, they proofed barrels by shooting squib loads with live rounds.



Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  


I haven't personally seen anything equally reliable but some are close. This whole thing started for me personally because I reached a point in my collection where I have all these different rifles of all types- and would love to downsize, consolidate etc. However it feels like a trade off.


7n6  




If you've never had a reliable AR, I don't know what to tell you...  The other posters are correct, it's dust, not sand or mud or water, that causes malfunctions in a rifle.  The M4/ M16 has been doing just fine in dusty environments for decades now.  Sure, you will read AAR's where people complain about it, but then you'll also read many who praise it.  I've seen AK's and Glocks fail, and I've seen AR's and SIG's that simply won't quit, no matter how dirty they get.  They are all great guns.  I'll take a weapon that is both reliable and accurate over one that is simply reliable.  I have no idea what you measure the standard of reliability as.  But think about this, Israel used to field and AK variant (Galil), and they switched to the AR instead, and now the Tavor.  And they live in a desert...  The hype about the AR's reliability problems was put to rest decades ago.  A Colt AR is every bit as reliable as an AK, but with a 1.5 MOA average as opposed to a 3 MOA average.  And for the record, I'm not an AR fanboy...in fact I don't even own one.  I'm going off my experiences being issued them for many years. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 17, 2017, 01:52:02 PM
But think about this, Israel used to field and AK variant (Galil), and they switched to the AR instead, and now the Tavor.  And they live in a desert... 

While on the face of it, this is correct, the Israelis did develop and field the Galil, then switched to the M-16 and M-4, and are now selectively transitioning to the Tavor or X95, it simply tells you what happened without the context of why it happened.

First and foremost, the troops didn't like the Galil because of its weight.  The only troops that didn't complain were the armor crews because they could clip it to the outside of the tank and let the tank carry the thing.  Secondly, foreign aid to Israel comes with strings, one of them is that a certain percentage of the money must be spent purchasing US products, so rather than spend their own money procuring expensive to produce Galils that the troops already told them they didn't like, they spent those dollars on M-16s, and later M-4s, which the troops really did like.  The Tavor brought something that even the M-4 couldn't; a small package that was well suited for how Israel saw their future conflicts shaping up; troops deploying from under armor into an urban environment. 

While the Tavor isn't subsidized by US foreign aid, it doesn't need to be given the foreign sales and the fact that Israel has other, more important big budget items that require those dollars.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: BoulderTroll on September 17, 2017, 02:52:58 PM
But think about this, Israel used to field and AK variant (Galil), and they switched to the AR instead, and now the Tavor.  And they live in a desert... 

While on the face of it, this is correct, the Israelis did develop and field the Galil, then switched to the M-16 and M-4, and are now selectively transitioning to the Tavor or X95, it simply tells you what happened without the context of why it happened.

First and foremost, the troops didn't like the Galil because of its weight.  The only troops that didn't complain were the armor crews because they could clip it to the outside of the tank and let the tank carry the thing.  Secondly, foreign aid to Israel comes with strings, one of them is that a certain percentage of the money must be spent purchasing US products, so rather than spend their own money procuring expensive to produce Galils that the troops already told them they didn't like, they spent those dollars on M-16s, and later M-4s, which the troops really did like.  The Tavor brought something that even the M-4 couldn't; a small package that was well suited for how Israel saw their future conflicts shaping up; troops deploying from under armor into an urban environment. 

While the Tavor isn't subsidized by US foreign aid, it doesn't need to be given the foreign sales and the fact that Israel has other, more important big budget items that require those dollars.

I get that.  My point was not that the M4 and later Tavor replaced the Galil due to being more reliable, my point was that if they weren't at least acceptably reliable, even in a desert environment, they would not have been selected. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 19, 2017, 06:21:41 PM

If you've never had a reliable AR, I don't know what to tell you...  The other posters are correct, it's dust, not sand or mud or water, that causes malfunctions in a rifle.  The M4/ M16 has been doing just fine in dusty environments for decades now.  Sure, you will read AAR's where people complain about it, but then you'll also read many who praise it.  I've seen AK's and Glocks fail, and I've seen AR's and SIG's that simply won't quit, no matter how dirty they get.  They are all great guns.  I'll take a weapon that is both reliable and accurate over one that is simply reliable.  I have no idea what you measure the standard of reliability as.  But think about this, Israel used to field and AK variant (Galil), and they switched to the AR instead, and now the Tavor.  And they live in a desert...  The hype about the AR's reliability problems was put to rest decades ago.  A Colt AR is every bit as reliable as an AK, but with a 1.5 MOA average as opposed to a 3 MOA average.  And for the record, I'm not an AR fanboy...in fact I don't even own one.  I'm going off my experiences being issued them for many years.  


I've owned plenty of AR's since the mid 90's and they will always remain in my collection. They are reliable when running quality brass ammunition and newer designed magazines. Though I personally prefer other rifles that are less finicky since I run a lot of older surplus ammo as well.



But think about this, Israel used to field and AK variant (Galil), and they switched to the AR instead, and now the Tavor.  And they live in a desert...  

While on the face of it, this is correct, the Israelis did develop and field the Galil, then switched to the M-16 and M-4, and are now selectively transitioning to the Tavor or X95, it simply tells you what happened without the context of why it happened.

First and foremost, the troops didn't like the Galil because of its weight.  The only troops that didn't complain were the armor crews because they could clip it to the outside of the tank and let the tank carry the thing.  Secondly, foreign aid to Israel comes with strings, one of them is that a certain percentage of the money must be spent purchasing US products, so rather than spend their own money procuring expensive to produce Galils that the troops already told them they didn't like, they spent those dollars on M-16s, and later M-4s, which the troops really did like.  The Tavor brought something that even the M-4 couldn't; a small package that was well suited for how Israel saw their future conflicts shaping up; troops deploying from under armor into an urban environment.  

While the Tavor isn't subsidized by US foreign aid, it doesn't need to be given the foreign sales and the fact that Israel has other, more important big budget items that require those dollars.

I get that.  My point was not that the M4 and later Tavor replaced the Galil due to being more reliable, my point was that if they weren't at least acceptably reliable, even in a desert environment, they would not have been selected.  


They used the FAL for years and it wasn't the best in desert environments even with the sand cut carriers. Israel later used their homegrown Galil but it's quite a heavy rifle especially for foot patrols. The 13" 5.56 SAR weighs 8.3 pounds unloaded and the 18" 5.56 AR version weighs 8.7 pounds unloaded. Later we gave them M4's for solidarity with our forces. Then likely from a reliability standpoint they decided to adopt the Tavor of their own design- which has an AK esque' style carrier group. Weight probably has more to do with their reason for adopting another rifle system over the Galil than anything else.
 

7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 19, 2017, 08:02:50 PM
They used the FAL for years and it wasn't the best in desert environments even with the sand cut carriers. Israel later used their homegrown Galil but it's quite a heavy rifle especially for foot patrols. The 13" 5.56 SAR weighs 8.3 pounds unloaded and the 18" 5.56 AR version weighs 8.7 pounds unloaded. Later we gave them M4's for solidarity with our forces. Then likely from a reliability standpoint they decided to adopt the Tavor of their own design- which has an AK esque' style carrier group. Weight probably has more to do with their reason for adopting another rifle system over the Galil than anything else.
7n6

Since you quoted what I wrote, I have to ask, "Did you even read what I wrote?"  We didn't "give them M-4s for solidarity with our forces", they bought them with foreign aid money because they had to spend the money on US goods.  The Israelis used a variety of Colt Carbines (CAR-15s) and M-16A1s, none of which had an 18" barrel.

Do some research.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 19, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
They used the FAL for years and it wasn't the best in desert environments even with the sand cut carriers. Israel later used their homegrown Galil but it's quite a heavy rifle especially for foot patrols. The 13" 5.56 SAR weighs 8.3 pounds unloaded and the 18" 5.56 AR version weighs 8.7 pounds unloaded. Later we gave them M4's for solidarity with our forces. Then likely from a reliability standpoint they decided to adopt the Tavor of their own design- which has an AK esque' style carrier group. Weight probably has more to do with their reason for adopting another rifle system over the Galil than anything else.
7n6

Since you quoted what I wrote, I have to ask, "Did you even read what I wrote?"  We didn't "give them M-4s for solidarity with our forces", they bought them with foreign aid money because they had to spend the money on US goods.  The Israelis used a variety of Colt Carbines (CAR-15s) and M-16A1s, none of which had an 18" barrel.

Do some research.


Gave them, bought them- basically acknowledging that they switched to AR's after the Galil etc.

Also, I was talking about the 18" barreled 5.56 Galil AR- that's the model designation for the longer barreled variant which weighs 8.7 pounds.  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 20, 2017, 01:17:18 AM

Gave them, bought them- basically acknowledging that they switched to AR's after the Galil etc.


If that's what you were acknowledging, then use the proper language; there's a big difference between what you said and what you claim to have meant.

Clarity is important. 


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 20, 2017, 12:08:28 PM

Gave them, bought them- basically acknowledging that they switched to AR's after the Galil etc.


If that's what you were acknowledging, then use the proper language; there's a big difference between what you said and what you claim to have meant.

Clarity is important.  



That's the thing, I can't find anything conclusive on the M4's transferred to Israel, specifically how much of that defense program was subsidized as far as military aid making it affordable for them. Either way, they phased out M4's and went with their own design with the Tavor. I can see why, not only does Israel have to deal with the dusty desert environment conditions but the situation is compounded by the M16's direct carbon fouling gas system into the receiver. It simply makes sense to move the piston outside of the receiver and is why they returned to an AK style gas system design with the Tavor. Bottom line, our own military is looking to phase out the M16 design as well so it's time to embrace the future.


7n6


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on September 20, 2017, 08:54:04 PM
That's the thing, I can't find anything conclusive on the M4's transferred to Israel, specifically how much of that defense program was subsidized as far as military aid making it affordable for them. Either way, they phased out M4's and went with their own design with the Tavor. I can see why, not only does Israel have to deal with the dusty desert environment conditions but the situation is compounded by the M16's direct carbon fouling gas system into the receiver. It simply makes sense to move the piston outside of the receiver and is why they returned to an AK style gas system design with the Tavor. Bottom line, our own military is looking to phase out the M16 design as well so it's time to embrace the future.

Israel phased out M-16 and CAR-15 use by *some* units, not all.  I doubt you'll find accurate numbers short of a FOIA request, but suffice it to say that they were acquired via FMA grants.  If the US does adopt something to replace the M-16/M-4, it won't be an AK and probably won't be something that uses a long stroke gas piston, there's too much desire for accuracy and long stroke doesn't do anything short stroke can do equally as well.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: scstrain on September 21, 2017, 03:31:47 PM
Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, and move on.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: 7n6 on September 21, 2017, 04:00:20 PM

Israel phased out M-16 and CAR-15 use by *some* units, not all.  I doubt you'll find accurate numbers short of a FOIA request, but suffice it to say that they were acquired via FMA grants.  If the US does adopt something to replace the M-16/M-4, it won't be an AK and probably won't be something that uses a long stroke gas piston, there's too much desire for accuracy and long stroke doesn't do anything short stroke can do equally as well.


I agree, our military will eventually adopt some form of short stroke piston. However the question will remain whether they can actually create a weapon that is as reliable overall as an AK. Especially something that is not a maintenance sensitive weapon as the DI M16/M4 is.


7n6  


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Kiwi Bruce on January 13, 2018, 02:54:57 PM
What I like about the AK as a weapons system, is the ease and cost of home-building one. I have an AR kit that I'm going to build, but it will take longer to build the AR 80% receiver than it does to build a complete AK rifle. I found my first AK kit on GB auction site, a couple of years ago...and it was a week before Christmas...and it was posted in with the SKS parts...and I was the only bidder...it was $80. A Romy under folder with the barrel. That's how I got into AK building. OK, today a kit like this is running between an around $500 to $600...an 80% receiver is $40. An AR build on the other hand, is about three times as much. No doubt,  the AR is a handsome rifle...but the AK is down-right BADASS.   


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 13, 2018, 08:48:58 PM
What I like about the AK as a weapons system, is the ease and cost of home-building one.

I gotta disagree here...there is no comparison when building an AK or an AR if you start with a box of the component parts; the AR is hands down, much more user friendly and easier to build.  Not to mention the AR doesn't need a hydraulic press or special fittings to produce.

My eyes were opened when I flew out to Lee Armory last August for a build class; the AK might be easier to maintain after its built, but to build it from the parts requires much more craftsmanship and skill than it does to fit parts together on an AR.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Kiwi Bruce on January 14, 2018, 12:11:00 PM
What I like about the AK as a weapons system, is the ease and cost of home-building one.

I gotta disagree here...there is no comparison when building an AK or an AR if you start with a box of the component parts; the AR is hands down, much more user friendly and easier to build. 

I'm pleased to read this as I've put off my AR build for a good year or more. Do you have access to a mill or did you use a jig and drill press ?
I made the press for my AK builds...4X4 frame and a 2 ton bottle jack. Cool that you got to go to a build course at Lee's. So how I'll have to dip my toe into the AR build waters and see how it goes...good New Years goal...I'm starting a bullpup AK now...so I'll have my plate full for a few weeks...


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 14, 2018, 08:33:31 PM
I'm pleased to read this as I've put off my AR build for a good year or more. Do you have access to a mill or did you use a jig and drill press ?
I made the press for my AK builds...4X4 frame and a 2 ton bottle jack. Cool that you got to go to a build course at Lee's. So how I'll have to dip my toe into the AR build waters and see how it goes...good New Years goal...I'm starting a bullpup AK now...so I'll have my plate full for a few weeks...

For the AR, all parts were "ready to go", none of this "80%" BS.  All that was needed was a vice, vice blocks, and an armorer's wrench.  As opposed to a hydraulic press, bench grinder, special tools for the rivets, and a lot of "good eye" to make sure that the barrel, trunions, and forward sight tower are populated properly.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: Kiwi Bruce on January 17, 2018, 10:05:48 AM
I like the 80% BS...not big on the idea of having all my receiver #'s registered with the "Men in Black"...just in case there is a shtf scenario in our future.


Title: Re: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 17, 2018, 09:42:44 PM
I like the 80% BS...not big on the idea of having all my receiver #'s registered with the "Men in Black"...just in case there is a shtf scenario in our future.

It isn't going to make a difference, and they already know who to "visit".