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Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor & X-95 => Topic started by: vawinds4 on August 08, 2017, 09:53:41 PM



Title: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: vawinds4 on August 08, 2017, 09:53:41 PM
I recently had an issue come up with two guns that I thought would serve as "Go-To / SHTF" weapons. I'll get to the Tavor X-95 in a moment. One gun was a high end 1911 and the other one was a 300BLK AR- SBR- before I recently bought my X-95 300BLK. Both guns had been put away for several months after having been cleaned with Fire Clean. When I took them out for a range day recently, neither would chamber a round. I changed magazines and performed multiple malfunction drills with each- no joy. Neither would chamber a round - much less fire one. After completely field stripping each and de-sludging/de-gumming them, they now cycle as expected and required for my home defense needs.

My Tavor X-95 300BLK (now my go-to gun of choice) with its robust operating system may have powered its way through this lubricant, but my question is, if I don't get to the range weekly or even monthly, is there some lubricant I can use for potential monthly storage without firing that will ensure my Tavor does what it needs to do- defend and protect with no holds barred? The reality is that I do not get to the range weekly or at times monthly due to job constraints/ weather, etc. so after cleaning, my guns can sit longer than I would like. I also believe with respect to gun ownership, one is none; two is one, mo' is better so it may take a few months to fully cycle, shoot and clean each gun.  Any thoughts on using Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla as a low viscosity lubricant that will keep all my guns good to go on demand?

I live in the mid-Atlantic and face fairly high humidity year round, and while I do not want to obsess over cleaning, I do obsess over a home defense weapon cycling a round and firing as expected.

Any thoughts for best practices to keep my Tavor or any other home defense gun 24/7 weapons ready will be gratefully appreciated!


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 08, 2017, 10:13:33 PM
I recently had an issue come up with two guns that I thought would serve as "Go-To / SHTF" weapons. I'll get to the Tavor X-95 in a moment. One gun was a high end 1911 and the other one was a 300BLK AR- SBR- before I recently bought my X-95 300BLK. Both guns had been put away for several months after having been cleaned with Fire Clean. When I took them out for a range day recently, neither would chamber a round. I changed magazines and performed multiple malfunction drills with each- no joy. Neither would chamber a round - much less fire one. After completely field stripping each and de-sludging/de-gumming them, they now cycle as expected and required for my home defense needs.

My Tavor X-95 300BLK (now my go-to gun of choice) with its robust operating system may have powered its way through this lubricant, but my question is, if I don't get to the range weekly or even monthly, is there some lubricant I can use for potential monthly storage without firing that will ensure my Tavor does what it needs to do- defend and protect with no holds barred? The reality is that I do not get to the range weekly or at times monthly due to job constraints/ weather, etc. so after cleaning, my guns can sit longer than I would like. I also believe with respect to gun ownership, one is none; two is one, mo' is better so it may take a few months to fully cycle, shoot and clean each gun.  Any thoughts on using Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla as a low viscosity lubricant that will keep all my guns good to go on demand?

I live in the mid-Atlantic and face fairly high humidity year round, and while I do not want to obsess over cleaning, I do obsess over a home defense weapon cycling a round and firing as expected.

Any thoughts for best practices to keep my Tavor or any other home defense gun 24/7 weapons ready will be gratefully appreciated!

People tend to have those problems with frog lube.  If your fire clean stuff is causing guns to stop working, then stop using it.


I lube my guns with motor oil, and use a light coat of motor oil over metal parts for storage.
Never had an issue.
I've lubed guns with motor oil, put them away for a year or two, took them out and they functioned flawlessly.

I use a little bit of tractor grease as well.  Never an issue.


Most gun oils are just snake oil.  Motor oil has some additives that combat carbon build up ( think about the abuse a vehicle engine goes through.  Motor oil is superior in my opinion, and it costs a fraction to what gun oils cost.

Standard 10w 30 or 5 w 30 have always worked 100% for me, and they last longer than thinner gun oils.  Motor oil doesn't dry out nearly as fast when used in an AR 15 action.

I put Lucas red n tacky Grease on the rails of my Tavor, and motor oil in the bolt workings.   Never had a single problem, in fact I believe this combo works better than the majority of snake oils gun oils.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 08, 2017, 10:15:10 PM
Quote
Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla

I suggest not using those, save your money and buy motor oil.
Rem oil dries out really fast compared to motor oil.  All those other oils you mentioned are snake oils.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 08, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
BTW

I use Lucas Red N tacky along with Motor oil on all of my guns.  Works really well.
I put the grease on stuff that slides, and oil on stuff that rotates.

Lucas Red N tacky works in sub zero temps and works at 540 degrees fahrenheit.
Motor oil is designed to work in engines that see harsher conditions than our guns will ever see.

Don't fall for gun oil gimmicks, most gun oils would fail in a vehicle engine or hard industrial use.  Lucas red n tacky, and motor oil are designed to function in a huge range of temps, through extremely harsh industrial applications.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: vawinds4 on August 08, 2017, 10:35:23 PM
I am going to have to re-clean all my guns this weekend- not the worst thing- somewhat therapeutic, just not what I had planned though. Thanks for your responses!


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 08, 2017, 10:40:04 PM
I am going to have to re-clean all my guns this weekend- not the worst thing- somewhat therapeutic, just not what I had planned though. Thanks for your responses!

Ya, any gun product that caused your guns to sieze up should be thrown away and never used again!


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 08, 2017, 11:44:28 PM
I'm not saying you have to use motor oil.. I would just say, be wary of all the new products out there... Try to stick with conventional oils as they are proven to be effective.

Stuff like Frog lube has been well documented to cause malfunctions in firearms.
No need to reinvent the wheel, which is why I trust automotive and industrial lubricants, because they put a lot of money into keeping expensive machinery working at peak performance.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: MyMonyPit on August 09, 2017, 09:37:52 AM
Rabbitslayer,

Do you discriminate against synthetic vs. dino? I may have read others also using some sort of trans fluid. Have you heard this?


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Halmbarte on August 09, 2017, 11:05:33 AM
I'm going to go against the grain and recommend not using engine oil.

My reasoning is engine oils are compromised vs a good gun lube in these areas:

Corrosion protection - Guns are open to the elements and get wet. Engine oils aren't very good at preventing rust.
EP additives - Engine oils are designed around the the oil being pumped to bearings and getting to a steady temp. Not a lot of firearms have oil pumps lubricating plain bearings, so you need more EP additives.
Creepiness - A gun oil needs o get into spaces between parts to lubricate them and protect them from corrosion. People tend to complain when engine oils ooze out of every seal in the motor.

As a side note, since there aren't any guns that have a catalytic converter, the additive package to achieve the above doesn't need to be compatible with catalytic elements, giving the lubrication engineer a bigger toolbox to pull from.

What I've been using recently is LSA (aka Royco 46), a semi-fluid 00 grease. It's creepy, keeps steel from rusting, leaves a film w/o gumming up, and has decent falex wear test results.

And it costs about $10 a quart.

H


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 03:39:50 PM
Motor oil and Lucas red n tacky are great rust preventatives, that's part of their intended purpose.  
''Motor oil, engine oil, or engine lubricant is any of various substances comprising base oils enhanced with additives, particularly antiwear additive plus detergents, dispersants and, for multi-grade oils viscosity index improvers. In addition to that, almost all lubricating oils contain corrosion (GB: rust) and oxidation inhibitors. ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

In fact, motor oils have to meet certain industry rust prevention standards.
Quote
''American Petroleum Institute (API)
Engine lubricants are evaluated against the American Petroleum Institute (API), SJ, SL, SM, SN, CH-4, CI-4, CI-4 PLUS, CJ-4, CK and FA as well as International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-3, GF-4 and GF-5, and Cummins, Mack and John Deere requirements. These evaluations include chemical and physical properties using bench test methods as well as actual running engine tests to quantify engine sludge, oxidation, component wear, oil consumption, piston deposits and fuel economy.''

There are simply no gun oils that have to meet nearly half of the standards that motor oils do.


Motor Vehicles get extremely wet and covered in salt on a regular basis.  Vehicle engines are exposed to the elements on a daily basis, and motor oils are specifically designed to prevent oxidation of metals, and lubricate components that are burning at hundreds of degrees at the same time.  They are designed to function is sub zero weather so that cars start easily in winter.  We leave our cars sitting outside in the elements everyday, I don't know about you, but I don't leave my Tavor sitting in the street through rain and snowstorms day in and day out.

The amount of abuse a vehicle engine goes through is more than any firearm will ever experience. Vehicle engines are constantly exposed to the elements, and in five minutes our engine pistons will fire more times than our Firearms actions will cycle in their entire lifetime.

I restored an old lever-action for a friend that's probably about 60 to 70 years old, that was rusted to hell.  I did my best to scrub away as much rust as I could, and then I put a light coat of cheap motor oil over the entire firearm.  3 years have passed and the gun does not have a single extra bit of rust on it.  The motor oil effectively stopped the furthering of any oxidation on that firearm.  And btw he keeps that gun sitting in the garage.

Yes absolutely motor oil products are designed to prevent oxidation of metals.  It would be ******ed if they weren't.

You say motor oils are more runny?  You can easily change the viscosity/weight of motor oil easily when you purchase it.  Although 5w30 has stayed put much better that rem oil or hoppes ever has from my experience, but if you wanted thicker oil, that is pretty easy to buy at any gas station or auto store, I'm not aware of any gun oil that offers multiple viscosity levels.  They also last much longer through heavy firing schedules.  Also Lucas red and tacky will stay wherever you put it for as long as you want it there.  I put lucas red n tacky on the rails of all my carry pistols, and it always stays put.


Automotive lubrication products are superior to REM oil or Hoppe's any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.  They also cost a fraction as much.  4$ for a quart of the highest quality motor oil vs  10$ for an oz of snake oil is a no brainer.

I don't suggest using used motor oil though.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 04:44:00 PM
Rabbitslayer,

Do you discriminate against synthetic vs. dino? I may have read others also using some sort of trans fluid. Have you heard this?

One thing about Trans fluid, is I have heard it may give off toxic fumes, so I've personally always stayed away from it.  Don't know if that is true, but hearing that kept me away from it.

Personally, I just use cheap 5w30 or 10w30 conventional from the gas station.  I don't think the differences would really matter with firearms use.  Although I have heard that the old synthetics designed back in the 60's were not as good at rust prevention, however that could have just been BS, and regardless with modern rust prevention additives in both conventional and synthetic oils and is no longer a point. 

In the end, I don't think it will make a difference.   

I have heard of people using Trans fluid, but personally I just stick with conventional motor oil, and Lucas red N tacky grease.  Grease for where things slide, and oil where things rotate.  Never had a single problem, and in fact I believe they make my actions feel smoother.   Also, I use the lucas red n tack in sub zero weather with no problems what so ever.
http://www.autozone.com/greases-and-gear-oil/lubricant-grease/lucas-oil-14-oz-red-and-tacky-grease/693860_0_0
Quote
Fortified with rust and oxidation inhibitors, having good water resistance and washout properties

I like the grease because it stays where I put it, and is a great lube, I just try to use it sparingly, because not much is really needed.  I've also noticed motor oil stays put and lasts much longer than Hoppes or remoil.

In the end, people are religious about their lube methods.  I just try to use the KISS method (Keep it simple stupid), I've been using the same quart of motor oil and tube of grease for a few years now, and it will probably be enough to last another 10 years honestly.   I put the motor oil in a spray bottle to make application easier.

I didn't mean to be too defensive about motor oil earlier, I just had to throw that stuff out there because another member falsely claimed it is a poor rust preventative, which is false.  Motor oil has to meet industry standards of rust prevention to even be sold in the industry.



That is all in regards to guns..

In my last truck I switched to synthetic after about 200k, and it worked great.. But I cannot definitively say it works better than conventional.  Although when I did switch to synthetic, I changed the oil every 5000-7000k instead of 3000k, and had no problems.
Currently my new truck is just getting conventional every 3000k-5000k, and it has been working flawlessly.
( my auto user manual suggests changing oil every 5000k for my truck )




Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: adoloris on August 09, 2017, 05:43:07 PM
Break Free CLP and Mobil 1 grease have served me well through the years. Even long neglected safe queens emerge and function flawlessly. I annually ( summer solstice) clean all of my guns so have never seen dried lube or grease in this interval.
I tried Hornady One Shot (dry lube) but found that malfunctions occurred at much lower round counts than CLP.
I also tried Gunzilla (biolube) but found it takes longer to get a clean bore.
I do clean my guns after each session except for the X-95, my go to gun, which I ran to over 2500 rounds without cleaning trying to get a malfunction - none occurred, so I cleaned it...
Home gun range, comp and classes keeps me shooting and cleaning often.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Halmbarte on August 09, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
Penzoil synthetic started showing rust in under 24 hours during this test: http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667
(http://i.imgur.com/e7OahXz.jpg)

The best products lasted more than 168 hours of outdoor exposure.

As far as auto engines vs guns, the exterior of engines are somewhat exposed to the elements, but when they are made of steel they are normally painted. Engines also are much less stressed.

For example:  An engine idling at 800 rpm would fire 48,000 times in an hour. There wouldn't be many firearms that would still be usable after 48,000 shots. We expect can and truck engines to last hundreds (if not thousands) of running hours and millions of cycles. Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles. Even the vaunted AK routinely breaks down after as few as 100,000 cycles, or the equivalent of about 2 hours idling.

I think a whole lot of what lube works best for you depends on you and your individual use conditions. Taking a gun out a couple times a year for an hour on a sunny day in a desert doesn't call for the same level of protection that a hunter in the woods in the Cascades in the wet season on his 3rd day out needs.

H


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: cciman on August 09, 2017, 06:42:48 PM
My $.02:

Gun lubes are like the auto additives - everyone is trying to make a buck, and selling fear and false promise---  there is no other industries on this planet that has R&D lubricants more than the auto or industrial markets.

Engine parts that meet and rub are bathed in lubricant with circulating fluid...guns are not.   If dry, the engine will fail very quickly.  I would argue that the spark plug ignitions in one single cylinder over the 100K miles that your car travels are many many times the forces that your puny gun will ever experience.

Most gun parts that fail  are  not the parts that meet and rub, but the parts that see impact and have no lubricant (barrel, springs, pins, lugs, firing pins, gas ports) -- your level of cleaning and lubrication will have no impact on how long these parts will last.

The last thing you want is having excessive oil droplets hitting you in the eyeball, eyeglasses, or fouling your primers.  I personally use whatever motor oil is left over after oil changes, and lube only the mating parts that meet and rub and don't worry about the other parts-- but I don't do SEAL maneuvers in salt water, and will use a moly lube if it is just going to sit there-- but it will attract more grit and dust.  I like nitrided and chrome lined treatments wherever possible.

Remember that WD40 was "discovered" as a protective moisture barrier for Titan missiles nosepieces, and engineers were taking it home to use.  Yes there are stories of WD40 locking up gun mechanisms, but that does not mean you can't use it as a rust preventative on surfaces that don't affect mechanical function. 

If you are truly worried and live in such a corrosive environment, put it in a plastic bag with a couple desiccant packs-- easy to just rip off.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 06:49:39 PM
My $.02:

Gun lubes are like the auto additives - everyone is trying to make a buck, and selling fear and false promise---  there is no other industries on this planet that has R&D lubricants more than the auto or industrial markets.


This


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: cciman on August 09, 2017, 07:00:31 PM
Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

NO, I'm saying they do not see a minute fraction of the forces inside an engine.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 07:08:19 PM
That was a response to Halmbarte, not you CCI man.

I agreed with everything you said in this thread!


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

NO, I'm saying they do not see a minute fraction of the forces inside an engine.

I understood what you meant, the response you quoted was me replying to Halmbarte, not what you said.
I said I agree with your statements CCIman  ;D

You and I have disagreed with much in the past, but in this topic I believe we have drawn the same opinions/conclusions.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Halmbarte on August 09, 2017, 08:09:52 PM
Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

Yes, I am.

I'm getting numbers in the 2500psi range for peak pressure in a diesel engine from the guys: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=215499

9mmP has a peak pressure of 35,000psi, 556 NATO gets up around 55,000psi.

There is more force in a firearm than many people expect.

BSW



Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 08:40:09 PM
Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

Yes, I am.

I'm getting numbers in the 2500psi range for peak pressure in a diesel engine from the guys: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=215499

9mmP has a peak pressure of 35,000psi, 556 NATO gets up around 55,000psi.

There is more force in a firearm than many people expect.

BSW



That is inside the barrel, where there is no oil or moving parts besides the bullet.  We don't put oil in our barrels to lube the bullets man, come on.

A gun bolt doesn't see any where near that kind of force.  The bolts/actions/moving parts in a gun only require a few pounds of force to operate.

Take a step back and think about it without your ego.

Think about how much force it takes to pull your bolt back on your tavor, then think about how much force it takes to move a 4,000 pound vehicle.
Come on dude, you're being ridiculous.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 08:46:28 PM
Go put some remoil in your truck and tell me how many miles you make it before it breaks down  ::)


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Practicool on August 09, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
Go put some remoil in your truck and tell me how many miles you make it before it breaks down  ::)

hehe

(note: I'm not trying this in my old Civic, LOL)


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 09, 2017, 09:25:22 PM
Little off topic, but this video was pretty cool.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYkg0oDUXs8


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: DOWNS on August 09, 2017, 10:00:22 PM
I use CLP because that's what I've always used and I still have a lot of it from when I was still in the military.  But I've used motor oil lots of times and in some cases old fashioned high speed wheel bearing grease in some areas. 

I've got a rag in a ziploc bag that has a pretty good soaking of oil and when I'm going to store a gun for a while I'll clean it then wipe everything down with that oily rag before I put it in the safe.  Never taken a rusty gun out of the safe that was treated that way.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Verfed on August 10, 2017, 10:55:03 AM
I never thought of or heard of using motor oil before, but you guys convinced me. Gonna save a lotta money.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: paulky_2000 on August 10, 2017, 11:22:29 AM
I never thought of or heard of using motor oil before, but you guys convinced me. Gonna save a lotta money.

Agreed.

Plus.....as often as I shoot/clean my guns......

A) There's very little possibility of rust.

B) I could save a TON of money on cleaning/lubricating supplies!

Okay, Rabbitslayer.....

What brand of oil are you currently using....and why?


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 03:17:49 PM
I'm just using the cheapest 5w30 I could buy lol.
I'd just say, if you want thicker oil get a thicker viscosity.
I used 10w30 for a while, works great.  Only reason I'm using 5w30 is because I had an extra quart after an oil change.  Can't remember what brand it is.
Basically every bottle of oil for sale at stores has to meet high industry standards for rust prevention, lubricity, and all that stuff.  So basically every brand will have additives that break down carbon and prevent rust.

Every motor oil product out there contains 10-25% additives, and 75-90% either crude oil base or synthetic base. 
For firearms use, I don't think it really matters.  Just buy the viscosity that you like or prefer :)



Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: DOWNS on August 10, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Basically every bottle of oil for sale at stores has to meet high industry standards for rust prevention, lubricity, and all that stuff.  So basically every brand will have additives that break down carbon and prevent rust.

Every motor oil product out there contains 10-25% additives, and 75-90% either crude oil base or synthetic base. 
For firearms use, I don't think it really matters.  Just buy the viscosity that you like or prefer :)



Not every bottle. Plenty of oils out there without proper certification but you'll find most of them on the corner gas station shelf.  Just make sure you pick up an oil that is API certified and avoid the energy conserving oils.  They are almost water thin but you won't find those in anything heavier than a 5W-30 if I remember right.   

I keep my motorcycle oil left overs (usually a few ounces here and there) and have a bottle slowing filling up on my shelf.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 03:30:12 PM
Synthetics break down carbon better, and keep a consistent viscosity better through a large range of temps while dirty.
So it's technically better.

But personally I usually clean my guns and give them fress oil after every outing or two; and i change the oil in my truck regularly, so for me the added cost of synthetic isn't going to give me anything extra besides a lighter wallet.
But during winter time, or if I'm going to be really abusing my truck, I can see the benefit of synth.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 03:54:32 PM
I'm sure that there are Car Guys on this forum who know more about specific oil brands than I do.  My knowledge of the subject is somewhat basic.
Btw  good point Downs on keeping an eye out for the certification mark!
I've used 711  brand in my truck that was certified iirc, and it ran great.  I honestly couldn't tell the difference between it and some name brand aside from the fact that I saved about $13 on my oil change.

I suppose if grabbing a quart of motor oil for your guns, there's no reason not to buy the best most expensive quart of oil that you can, because honestly that single quart of oil that you spent maybe 10 bucks on for the expensive brand will last you for many many years. 


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 10, 2017, 04:35:07 PM
Personally, I prefer Frog Lube. I've used it extensively on my AR, bolt action, and pistols with positive results. It coats the metal and gets into the pores which keeps it lubricated and protected for longer. One of the convenient things about frog lube is that carbon doesn't stick nearly as much as with other lubes. It lasts long and is easy to clean. Frog Lube also sells a carbon fowling solvent that is excellent at removing carbon fowling. I have not had any issues with Frog Lube whereas other lubes have given me problems.

Breakfree CLP is a great, standard CLP.

I do not recommend motor oil. It is optimized for use in engines (temperatures, pressures, journal bearings, ball bearings, etc), and not for firearms. It can work great in firearms, but other lubes optimized for firearms will before better. Motor oil really can't handle the temperatures produced in firearms and breaks down earlier than CLP. Also, motor oil is optimized to flow through an engine. In an firearm, the oil coats the parts and remains relatively stationary. Excessive oil can and will get dirty quickly, and a light coating breaks down from temperature.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: Articlion on August 10, 2017, 05:16:01 PM
I do not recommend motor oil. It is optimized for use in engines (temperatures, pressures, journal bearings, ball bearings, etc), and not for firearms. It can work great in firearms, but other lubes optimized for firearms will before better. Motor oil really can't handle the temperatures produced in firearms and breaks down earlier than CLP,

Motor oil can handle the heat just as well as so called gun oil internal engine combustion temps could be 600 700c at the piston and the oil performs just fine cooling the piston and lubricating the ring pack as far as lubricating your gun its the moving parts you are after which have very little heat or pressure . you will never find an oil that will stand up to chamber pressure you could dump motor oil or fire arm oil down the barrel and after a couple rounds it will have burned off. so i don't think heat or pressure differences are even a factor. i


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 05:33:20 PM
Personally, I prefer Frog Lube. I've used it extensively on my AR, bolt action, and pistols with positive results.

I usually tell people not to use frog lube because it has been well documented to cause malfunctions in firearms due to it gumming up.  Also, to properly use frog lube, you have to completely clean the gun of any traditional oil, and you cannot mix standard oils with it or it will gum up and cause malfunctions.  As well even a small amount of overlube using frog lube will cause malfunctions.  Also my x girlfriend put frog lube in her S&W Shield, and it caused numerous malfunctions.
Traditional oils don't cause problems like this, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Here are just a few documentations of froglube causing malfunctions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38ydg9B5x8

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=444873
Quote
When I dropped the slide on the round, I noticed it took a little longer, but did not think anything of it (stupid me, I know). The first round failed to eject. I think this was my first failure with the gun (who'd already put 1000+ rnds downrange w/o a problem). When clearing it is when I really noticed that the slide was very sluggish, and the froglube had taken on a slightly gummy property.



https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533770

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/21/froglube-is-probably-made-from-coconut-oil-not-frogs/

Quote
But here comes the big problem----> about 9 month after being bought the FL get bad (get rotten ): changed odor (now rancid) and completely changed behavior, without any contamination in the bottle, stored in normal conditions (no extreme hot-cold).

Now the "rancid FL" will gum up any firearm: pistol-rifle (literally like a glue) and it will suck as a rust protective.
It gave me many jams-malfunctions.
The super-smooth feeling slide-frame, became a super-glued action.
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=450641

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_69Kq34056Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9z1GDyH3x4








Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 05:41:58 PM
FWIW

I've been using motor oil for the past 4-5 years, and have had zero malfunction after tens of thousands of rounds with pistols, AR's, AK's, shotguns, Tavor, etc.  I use it in sub zero temps during winter, and 100+ degree F summer weather.  I am a high volume shooter, and I trust the stuff with my life.  I use it on every type of gun I have, and have never had a single malfunction from it.  It lasts much longer than traditional gun oils, and breaks down carbon much better.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 10, 2017, 05:52:35 PM
Also, to properly use frog lube, you have to completely clean the gun of any traditional oil, and you cannot mix standard oils with it or it will gum up and cause malfunctions.  As well even a small amount of overlube using frog lube will cause malfunctions. 

Traditional oils don't cause problems like this, no need to reinvent the wheel.

From my own extended use, I've never had issues with FL. To clarify, I use the paste, properly clean as instructed, and only coat the surfaces wipe-away clean. I can imagine that if you leave excess lube, it will gum up and cause malfunctions. Now, I have not done extensive durability testing with my guns.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 10, 2017, 05:59:40 PM
FWIW

I've been using motor oil for the past 4-5 years, and have had zero malfunction after tens of thousands of rounds with pistols, AR's, AK's, shotguns, Tavor, etc.  I use it in sub zero temps during winter, and 100+ degree F summer weather.  I am a high volume shooter, and I trust the stuff with my life.  I use it on every type of gun I have, and have never had a single malfunction from it.  It lasts much longer than traditional gun oils, and breaks down carbon much better.

It's worth a lot.

I've done some basic testing with motor oil. My only complaint is that when the gun gets hot, it smells like burning motor oil, whereas, traditional CLPs don't. I should do more test with my own guns.

I have found, that with any oil, if you use too much that it appears and feels wet, it will gum up. The recommendation for running ARs "wet" is for extensive fowling and hot BCG that burns up the oil. It is not recommended practice for normal operation. Now, ARs, and any gun for that matter, should be oiled but not drenched.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 06:25:45 PM
I've overlubed a few guns with motor oil in the past, never had a problem.  I've shot in some dust storms where I had to wear a bandana over my face to not breathe dust/sand as well as eye protection, and the sand storms caused the action of my AR to get extremely dirty, but the gun just kept on chugging along with no problem. (at one point I pulled a bore snake through because I thought sand got in the barrel, but I didn't clean the action)
I also had a buddy that was an Army vet who used to put so much CLP in his AR and Glock that it would spray out when you fired it lol.  I remember shooting his G19, and CLP would splat onto my shooting glasses  {:-D} Never caused a malfunction though.  Even though I think CLP is not that great (mediocre cleaner, mediocre lube, mediocre rust prevention), I would rather use it than Frog lube for the simple fact I've never heard of standard CLP causing malfunctions.

To give credit where it is due.
Frog lube does prevent rust very well, more so than other gun products.
  However, with it causing the risk of malfunctions for so many various reasons I always tell people to avoid it.  If Frog lube is improperly applied, it will cause malfunctions, and it also commonly gets into the firing pin channels of pistols over time, causing light primer strikes.  Couple that with the fact if you mix traditional petro oil gun products into a gun that was using Frog lube, the frog lube will gum up, I just don't like it.  With traditional oils you can mix them all you want, you can even mix them with grease and it will cause no problems.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 10, 2017, 07:05:37 PM
I've had gumming issues with CLP and overlubbing (re: any lube) with my Sig P320. Using the FL paste and a "dry" lubing technique, I haven't had issues sense.

To give credit where it is due.
Frog lube does prevent rust very well, more so than other gun products.
I believe, in context with OP, a good oil for a safe queen firearm is more in line with the question. Though, motor should do better for storage and rust prevention.

Unrelated: I've switched from using my P320 to a CZ Shadow 2 for competition. While, not a result from, the switch just so happened to coincide with the discovery of the drop failure issue.

I've overlubed a few guns with motor oil in the past, never had a problem.  I've shot in some dust storms where I had to wear a bandana over my face to not breathe dust/sand as well as eye protection, and the sand storms caused the action of my AR to get extremely dirty, but the gun just kept on chugging along with no problem. (at one point I pulled a bore snake through because I thought sand got in the barrel, but I didn't clean the action)

You've sold me on using motor oil. I'll have to work it back into my guns. The P320 would be a good case study given the issues that I've already had with it.

Anyone who says that AKs are more reliable than ARs have never heard of this kind of story.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: RabbitSlayer on August 10, 2017, 07:14:54 PM
What issues were you having with the 320?
I've heard it will fire if you drop it  :o


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 10, 2017, 07:25:17 PM
My P320 full size 9mm (with grayguns flat trigger) was having light primer strikes with approximately 1/200 rnds. I credited it to gummy/dirty striker assembly. It was mildly and I mean mildly gummed up. I haven't had issues since cleaning it thoroughly.

I have drop tested mine. In 5 tests at 4 feet, drop safe. At 10 feet, striker drops every time. I tested with nothing in the chamber. You can tell by the trigger pull if the striker dropped.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: timetraveler on August 13, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
Vawinds4--I use the Mil-Comm products for preservation and lubrication of my firearms.  The National Rifle Association National Firearms Museum curators use Mil-Comm MC3000 to preserve their extensive and valuable firearm collection.  The NRA endorses and markets the Mil-Comm products as the NRA Guncare System.  I would search e-bay for the best prices on the Mil-Comm products.

MC 3000® Semi Fluid Lubricant/Protectant
Mil-Comm formulated this extraordinary lubricant especially for use by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy 20mm gun systems aboard F-15, F-16 and FA-18 Fighter Jets. Effective for all types of weapons, but specially engineered for Gatling and machine guns operating in all climates and conditions. All-synthetic.

https://www.nraguncare.com/main/tech-info 
https://www.mil-comm.com/


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: vawinds4 on August 13, 2017, 04:29:30 PM
Much appreciated timetraveler- will check out your links!


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: MyMonyPit on August 13, 2017, 07:18:07 PM
While I wouldn't say we got off topic necessarily, I would be interested in what everyone is using to "clean" their guns. I'm still old school I guess with Hoppe's.


Title: Re: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?
Post by: phantoms on August 14, 2017, 12:55:33 PM
From "Lubrication 101 (http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/lubrication-101/)"

Quote
Motor oils: Generally good boundary lubrication (particularly the Havoline formulations), but very poor corrosion resistance and poor resistance to open-air oxidation. The biggest problem is that their pour-point additives often contain benzene compounds, which aren’t a good thing to have next to your skin on a regular basis! I recommend staying away from motor oils; if you must use something from the auto parts store, ATF performs better for firearms use on every count, even if it is a tad more expensive. (ATF is still 1/10 to 1/100th the cost of a specialty “gun oil.”)