BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor SAR & X-95 => Topic started by: Jwill on June 20, 2017, 10:55:13 PM



Title: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 20, 2017, 10:55:13 PM
I have been thinking about it and decided to get busy drawing this up so I can have it 3D printed for test fitting and ergonomics. That being said I want to get it made out of aluminum and type 3 hard anodized and wanted to see if there was any interests from others as cost will be cheaper the more that are ordered.
Other than the protrusion at the top for length requirements it is half the thickness of the Manticore butt-pad for over 75% of its length with the bottom being 1/8" thick increasing a bit over .3" before the protrusion which begins extending at the top 1 1/8" approximately. For those looking for the shortest possible length of pull this is it even without minimum length requirements the butt plate would still be .25" thick due the polymer buffer which protrudes 1/8" outside of the stock.

  


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Sdevante on June 20, 2017, 11:11:26 PM
I've had a similar idea before but decided to just braze the brake on. You may want to consider making the length extension extend a bit lower as the ATF measures "on a line parallel to the axis of the bore," which sounds like it runs through the barrel. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download. I'd at least spend a little time researching what that term means to make sure you don't inadvertently create an SBR.

And....these NFA laws are dumb.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 02:11:49 AM
More pics


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: RadScorpius on June 21, 2017, 02:13:17 AM
I think that will make it too short on a 16" Tavor


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 02:14:13 AM
The maximum thickness is 1 3/16" at the top for those who are concerned about not meeting the 26" minimum length requirement. My Manticore butt pad measures 1 1/8" approximately at the thickest portion.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Sdevante on June 21, 2017, 09:09:58 AM
The maximum thickness is 1 3/16" at the top for those who are concerned about not meeting the 26" minimum length requirement. My Manticore butt pad measures 1 1/8" approximately at the thickest portion.

My point was that your design will meet the length requirement at the very top of the rifle, but I don't think that's where ATF measures length from.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: azklaus on June 21, 2017, 09:44:43 AM
So I believe the upper portion is legitimate for ATF measurement which is why Manticore does their curved buttpad:
https://www.manticorearms.com/tavor-curved-buttpad.html


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: paulky_2000 on June 21, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
Stupid law for stupid people that was created by people living in stupid states.

Just be grateful that they don't reach further than they do.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 12:17:34 PM
Let me address this, the law is written that measurements are to be take parallel to the bore so that people don't take a diagonal measurement; for example from the end of the muzzle to the bottom of the butt plate where a 25.5" overall length with a stock that extends 5.25" below the barrel would measure a little over 26" using the Pythagorean theorem.

Let's put this nfa topic to rest and get back to what any you think of my design I'm looking for opinions or ideas to improve it.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: paulky_2000 on June 21, 2017, 12:24:52 PM
Let me address this, the law is written that measurements are to be take parallel to the bore so that people don't take a diagonal measurement; for example from the end of the muzzle to the bottom of the butt plate where a 25.5" overall length with a stock that extends 5.25" below the barrel would measure a little over 26" using the Pythagorean theorem.

Let's put this nfa topic to rest and get back to what any you think of my design I'm looking for opinions or ideas to improve it.

I LOVE what you've designed! If it satisfies the 'tards that created and enforce the laws....then I wouldn't change a thing. What are YOUR thoughts on the model?


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 12:54:52 PM
There will be some more changes but appearance wise it will remain mostly the same, the changes made will be mostly to simplify machining in order to reduce cost of manufacture. Once I have the prototype model I will check fit and function then make any needed changes to the solidworks model.

If there is any interest I could do a version without the protrusion for those who have an sbr tax stamp, pinned 16" or an 18" barrel.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: paulky_2000 on June 21, 2017, 02:51:00 PM
I already have the IWI thin butt-plate.....so anything you have for testing.....I'd love to see!


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: BoulderTroll on June 21, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
I like the design.  I use an 18" barrel, so a version without the top hook is what would appeal to me most.

I'm having a little difficulty picturing it from your description...I like that you are using aluminum construction, but is it entirely aluminum, or is there a thin rubber pad or rubberized coating?  I'd think that solid aluminum, even if you machined the texture on the butt, would be a little slick when shouldering.  It would also be much colder in chilly weather. 


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: RabbitSlayer on June 21, 2017, 05:52:26 PM
I like the design.  I use an 18" barrel, so a version without the top hook is what would appeal to me most.

I'm having a little difficulty picturing it from your description...I like that you are using aluminum construction, but is it entirely aluminum, or is there a thin rubber pad or rubberized coating?  I'd think that solid aluminum, even if you machined the texture on the butt, would be a little slick when shouldering.  It would also be much colder in chilly weather. 

Fwiw, I have a few guns with metal but plates, mainly AK's, and i've never had a problem with them slipping around in my shoulder.  I've never noticed them being cold on my shoulder in the winter as well.



Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: RabbitSlayer on June 21, 2017, 05:53:22 PM
(snip)

And....these NFA laws are dumb.

+1


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: dntam on June 21, 2017, 07:38:44 PM
Why not just sell a "triangle" part to permanently attach a piece to a thin butt plate. If it's permanently attached I would assume it is legal.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Practicool on June 21, 2017, 08:34:59 PM
I would definitely be interested in one for my SAR, without protrusion if possible.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 09:15:36 PM
I like the design.  I use an 18" barrel, so a version without the top hook is what would appeal to me most.

I'm having a little difficulty picturing it from your description...I like that you are using aluminum construction, but is it entirely aluminum, or is there a thin rubber pad or rubberized coating?  I'd think that solid aluminum, even if you machined the texture on the butt, would be a little slick when shouldering.  It would also be much colder in chilly weather. 

If you scroll up I attached pictures of the where I'm at with the model and you can see what texture it will have to keep from slipping, and there will be two versions.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 21, 2017, 09:25:29 PM
Why not just sell a "triangle" part to permanently attach a piece to a thin butt plate. If it's permanently attached I would assume it is legal.

I'm not doing it for the money  :D I just want to do one for my rifle and if others want one and I can recoup some the cost then its a win win. I just prefer to make it one piece and it will be cheaper to make that way.

 


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: RabbitSlayer on June 21, 2017, 09:38:57 PM
Why not just sell a "triangle" part to permanently attach a piece to a thin butt plate. If it's permanently attached I would assume it is legal.

I'm not doing it for the money  :D I just want to do one for my rifle and if others want one and I can recoup some the cost then its a win win. I just prefer to make it one piece and it will be cheaper to make that way.

  

If you made something like that for the x95 i'd be interesting in buying it!

Edit : I asked a question to which there was already an answer in this thread.  Sounds legit!


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Rick53 on June 22, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
Thin Buttplates make these unbelievably fast to recover for follow up shots. It might just be my imagination: But it feels like it doesn't bounce around as much. I definitely am not having to concentrate to stay inline with the sight. Something I was keenly aware of in the Stock Config: It's like having a different rifle. I have long arms. Yet it feels like I am much more one with the gun then prior. Even benching seems more natural.  

Welding isn't that big of deal either . Even if you have to send it out, it's just the barrel.

  I have been to a Public Range Twice since I had it welded. Waiting for the excavator to come make my range complain proof from the neighbors. Long story that would make most mad. Even had the NRA out to inspect My Backstop

 For some reason none of the Local Gun Stores Carry any Bullpups. SO it makes me the center of attention with this toy most haven't seen before. Surprising How many People haven't even heard of IWI-US aka Tavor or X-95 . Lots of AK guys : I mention this because the Range officer and even an NRA Deputy both held and Shot it. Neither brought up the OAL. Other then to ask if it was an SBR when we were first discussing what it was. Once I said no it's a 16 inch Barrel. Nobody said wait it's 1/2 inch to short unless you have that Muzzie welded up. Although several did say No Way !!!! Really Cool  

I feel better that mine is legal : However from what I observed even those who should know have no clue OAL wise.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 22, 2017, 09:31:29 PM
I went ahead and finished drawing the thin butt plate first this is what the finished product should look like I will have these 3d printed on the 1st for testing fit and ergonomics.

The top is 5/16" thick and the bottom is 3/16" thick.
All feedback is appreciated. 


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 23, 2017, 08:49:33 PM
Finished the other one today I don't see making any changes until I have them 3d printed.
I know some people may wonder what the projected weight is according to Solid Works. SBR-1.2 oz, Extended-1.7 oz.

Also new pics of the Extended model.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 24, 2017, 04:13:24 AM
I wasn't happy with the Extended butt plate I posted earlier so I made some changes let me know what you think.



Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: paulky_2000 on June 24, 2017, 09:14:14 AM
Looks pretty good!


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 25, 2017, 04:46:45 AM
I ordered a 3d printed version from shapeways to test the fit and ergos so should have that next week. I am currently looking into having one made from CFF or carbon fiber filament. This is nylon with a carbon fiber filament embedded which can be 3d printed it seems promising cost wise for a limited production run basis. Once I have a model optimized for 3d printing I will probably place an order to test it.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: dntam on June 25, 2017, 09:45:01 AM
How about stippling the rear surface or having heavy horizontal ridges? Not sure the "dots" will have enough traction.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: unsungboxer on June 25, 2017, 11:51:50 AM
it would be awesome if someone could create an extending mechanism for the IWI thin plate.  OAL is measured at the extended position, so even if you run it collapsed you are good.  This would retain a factory look.

I was imagining a variation of a "knife hinge" on the buttpad's top pin.  Even if only the top extends out it should reach OAL

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/finewoodworking.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2016/09/06075233/knife-hinge-opener-main.jpg)


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 25, 2017, 03:55:35 PM
How about stippling the rear surface or having heavy horizontal ridges? Not sure the "dots" will have enough traction.
This could happen if there is an issue with slipping but I don't foresee it being a problem.

it would be awesome if someone could create an extending mechanism for the IWI thin plate.  OAL is measured at the extended position, so even if you run it collapsed you are good.  This would retain a factory look.

I was imagining a variation of a "knife hinge" on the buttpad's top pin.  Even if only the top extends out it should reach OAL

I had thought about this there just isn't a lot of room to work with and while I had an idea that could work I just think the added weight and cost would have been prohibitive.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 28, 2017, 04:28:53 PM
I have decided to add a poll to gauge interests.

I should have the first prototype in on the 1st and will post pictures.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on June 30, 2017, 04:15:33 PM
Well here it is ladies and gents there are some minor issues with design and aesthetics that being said, I will begin making the needed changes and I should be placing the order for the next prototype by Monday.

To address some questions that I'm sure will come up:
Nylon is clear, so these parts will be dyed black, the black you do see is carbon fiber however the next prototype and production version will have fiberglass and more of it which has a tan color but it will be dyed black.



Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on July 04, 2017, 05:34:38 PM
Worked on the model I will need to do one more prototype then I should be the final version. I may leave the holes for the take-down pin slightly undersized by .01 inch so the end user can make sure the fit is perfect. I added taller sections lengthwise to increase stiffness as I observed a slight amount of flex in the first prototype and previously angled edges have been rounded. The heptagon pattern on the face may not be on the final version.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: wabo100 on July 04, 2017, 11:16:05 PM
Looks nice


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Practicool on July 05, 2017, 05:58:08 PM
Looking forward to it!


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on July 07, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
Dyed the first prototype black which actually worked very well.
I also hope to have a quote for production from "Aluminum" within a week or two. The broken horizontal bar pattern used on the aluminum version will probably be on the production version regardless of material.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: paulky_2000 on July 07, 2017, 07:25:25 PM
I'm in.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on July 17, 2017, 05:02:10 AM
This project is still moving forward waiting on my second prototype which I should have this week. I am also waiting on the numbers for machining.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on July 20, 2017, 01:31:16 PM
Here is the second prototype (SBR version) fitted to a "legal length rifle" this will be sent out to a 3rd party for feedback to see what improvements are needed.





Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Practicool on July 21, 2017, 04:53:31 PM
Here is the second prototype (SBR version) fitted to a "legal length rifle" this will be sent out to a 3rd party for feedback to see what improvements are needed.





Looks great!  Count me in.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on September 20, 2017, 07:10:59 AM
I don't forsee getting these machined anytime soon so, I will now be giving out the .STL file (This will allow you to have it 3d printed) for the sbr buttplate for those who want it you can contact me via pm with your email so I can send it. I messaged the admin about obtaining permission to upload the file but I'm not sure how that will go. I will also be sending out the file for the extended version after a make some tweaks to the protrusion.

Edit:

It has come to my attention that this process is foreign to some people so I will provide this little guide.

1. Once I receive your email I will attach the file and send it to you.
2. Once you have the file you will need to get it printed via a 3d printing service that offers prints in nylon. If your concerned about strength some 3d printing services offer fiberglass filament this will make for a much stronger and stiffer part though it will cost more.
3. Now that you have found a 3d printing service you will need to send them the file, it will either need to be uploaded onto their site or emailed they should then provide a quote.
4. After you get your part back if it is still clear you may want to dye it there is plenty of information on this on the internet but it simply involves soaking it in hot water with the Rit Dye  color of your choice.

And that's it. 


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: jdchen0407 on September 20, 2017, 10:01:22 PM
I like this!


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Dogmeat on September 24, 2017, 07:33:01 AM
I'm interested in the SBR version. I have an 18" barrel SAR as well.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: dntam on September 24, 2017, 11:33:07 AM
Not sure I would go for a printed part for that price.  However perhaps the durability of printed parts have significantly improved? I would much prefer a molded part.

 Also how deep will the dye be. Dyed parts can scratch revealing the lighter base material. Hopefully the underlying material is not white.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Practicool on September 26, 2017, 07:16:19 PM
Has anyone heard from the OP/Designer?  I sent him a PM with email asking for the file(s), no word yet.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on September 27, 2017, 05:07:04 PM
I just sent you a pm i havent forgot i just haven't gotten around to checking the non sbr file to make sure it is current i will try to get it out this evening.



Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on October 24, 2017, 03:08:46 AM
Has anyone who requested the file had one made?


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Practicool on October 25, 2017, 05:43:23 AM
Waiting on my machinist friend to make it in off-time. 


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: bplvr on January 27, 2018, 09:16:22 PM
If anyone has an original Tavor butt pad that they wish to sell please send me a P/M.
I'm going to make one like this Schnobel butt plate to meet minimum length requirements.
I do NOT want to have to silver solder stuff on my 18.5" barrel.
Ca. sucks.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Furluge on February 08, 2019, 06:32:41 AM
Looks nice. I'd be interested in an X95 version if you ever make one. I've got Manticore's pad right now but it'd be interesting to get the flat part even flatter.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on February 12, 2019, 12:29:46 PM
They already make a thin one for the x95 granted you will have to pin your muzzle device to meet overall length requirements or sbr it.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: waffleironskillet on February 12, 2019, 04:15:00 PM
Has anyone who requested the file had one made?

I got one made through a company online.  It is made of nylon reinforced plastic.  Took a bit of work to make it fit since the holes for the pins were a bit too tight.  Not sure if that is an issue of the design or manufacture. 

Either way, a bit of work with a drill and everything popped in just fine.  It has held up just fine through many range trips.  The thin plate is very nice for my 18" SAR.  No SBR issues to be had since I am well over the 26" limit.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on February 15, 2019, 12:47:48 AM
The holes being tight are a result of the manufacture I view this as positive as it is too easy to drill or ream out the plastic vs dealing with sloppy holes.
I made one using fiberglass reinforcement and is was very rigid with the fit being better than my manticore arms pad when it comes to getting the captured pin in.

I'm glad to see you got use of that file! Feel free to hand it out, if you don't mid I would love to see a picture.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Dogmeat on March 06, 2019, 08:27:12 AM
Waffleironskillet, if you don't mind me asking, which company did you use to print this?



Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Dogmeat on March 21, 2019, 02:59:41 PM
I got one made, I had to bore out the holes 1/64th inch which was no big deal. Fits good no sloppiness. On my SAR 18, it comes in at 26 & 5/8 inches without a flash hider. Thanks again Jwill for the time and effort you put into this.    :cheerleader

(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/shark13070/TFB_1_zpsq5qn54mb.jpg) (https://s58.photobucket.com/user/shark13070/media/TFB_1_zpsq5qn54mb.jpg.html)


(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/shark13070/TFB_2_zpsyvhrjy8f.jpg) (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/shark13070/media/TFB_2_zpsyvhrjy8f.jpg.html)


(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/shark13070/TFB_3_zpsacgheaet.jpg) (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/shark13070/media/TFB_3_zpsacgheaet.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: Jwill on March 21, 2019, 03:10:01 PM
Your welcome, looks great.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR Thin Buttplate
Post by: ParanoidMedic on April 18, 2019, 02:34:24 AM
If like too get a copy of the file for my 18 inch SAR