BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => Desert Tech MDR => Topic started by: Frostburg on April 16, 2017, 12:09:30 AM



Title: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Frostburg on April 16, 2017, 12:09:30 AM
This thought has recently occurred to me. We are all waiting, and expecting more delays. Things arn't looking good. We are in the dark. We may be pleasantly surprised, but that could just be the denial talking.

I want to talk about the possibility that the MDR project might sink before it ever launches. Desert Tech may be facing some financial issues potentially, as well. What if after two more delays, DT posts an announcement sincerely apologizing, but the MDR will be "indefinitely delayed," as in being 'shelved?'

It could ruin Desert Tech and they may end up being bought up by another company. We know many people on this site have already canceled their orders, and probably many more who are not even on this site.

If the MDR gets canceled, they will never survive as a company under the same name.  They may be desperate trying to get the MDR finished, and they may be well aware of the dire situation they are now in. For them, it would be a complete catastrophe. 

At this point, I think this may very well be tangible reality.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Glorfindel on April 16, 2017, 01:00:04 AM
It's possible, but I don't think so. I'm pretty sure they could have been shipping rifles a year ago if they had a true "do or die" deadline. The rifles of last year may not have been all we hoped and dreamed of, but they would have avoided ruining the company. There are still delays and I'm expecting a few more, honestly, but I think the signs are there that it actually is pretty close now.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: SteveInAlaska on April 16, 2017, 03:47:47 AM
At this point it may be financial versus an engineering issue, perhaps they are so over extended that they can't pay their bills to get the parts to get guns out.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Slateman on April 16, 2017, 08:36:37 AM
Then I have money for a B&T APC223


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: reason on April 16, 2017, 08:46:52 AM
I have started to worry about bankruptcy. With the loss of confidence in DT to the point that no one but the most ardent fanboy believes anything DT says, to the failure to even keep QnA deadlines..... It looks really bad. Hope that they cross the finish line with a great product so they can reconcile their missteps.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on April 16, 2017, 11:08:01 AM
The MDR isn't the only rifle that Desert Tech's income is based on. They are already a successful company based on their bolt action rifles. This is a separate venture that shouldn't affect the company in a dire way resulting in bankruptcy as you wildly suggest. I guess you never heard of the Ares Defense Shrike project?

Ares Defense was an already established company like Desert Tech and they came up with a new project called the Shrike, for which they solicited pre-orders. Unlike DT, Ares requested $1,000 down for pre-order and $1,500 upon completion of the Shrike. Ares didn't deliver the Shrike until almost 10 years later. Many customers requested and got refunds of their $1,000 down payment. There were many delays for several (2 or 3) years. Then, all of a sudden, no more updates or word of delays. Almost complete silence. After waiting almost 10 years Ares started delivering Shrikes to a few customers at a  time. It took about 3-4 more months after initially deliveries started that I finally received my Shrike. Oh, and like the MDR, Ares raised the price of the Shrike for new orders. But, like the MDR, the pre-order customer's prices did not go up one cent.

I've been through this waiting/multiple delays thing before. It all worked out in the end as promised with no price increase for pre-order customers just like the MDR. I seriously doubt that the MDR will be delayed 10 years like the Shrike. I'm not whining and have patience.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Menace667 on April 16, 2017, 11:14:32 AM
if DT wanted money that badly I would think they could have just shipped the rifles sans ejection chute to get them into play and start extra revenue coming in by doing a sort of "soft launch". hell, for that matter they could have released almost ANYTHING as a version 1.0 after they had preorders in hand to justify keeping those dollars and reinvest them as opposed to holding out for a ideal finalized product knowing that delays would guarantee some returns... also, DT has been very open to those who are unhappy to get refunds so it doesn't seem that likely they are in financial straits. They have avoided any of the obvious signs of financial troubles so I would say not to worry.

Playing along though, there has been a lot of interest in the platform in the last couple years so IF they become insolvent and fold there are many companies who would probably pick up the patents on the MDR, rebrand it, and make a fortune as they have the larger manufacturing processes necessary to accomplish it in a short timeframe. Imagine the same rifle being made by Keltec, Remington, or even Colt... while quality and WC would be far less than what DT is known for, they could turn them out in quantity with a short lead time to tool up.



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on April 16, 2017, 11:15:24 AM
I have started to worry about bankruptcy. With the loss of confidence in DT to the point that no one but the most ardent fanboy believes anything DT says, to the failure to even keep QnA deadlines..... It looks really bad. Hope that they cross the finish line with a great product so they can reconcile their missteps.

You're worried about DT going into bankruptcy because people that buy their products are losing confidence in DT? Really? They have an established clientele based on their bolt action rifles. They don't need the MDR to stay in business because they're already established in business and I have never heard anything bad about their bolt action rifles that has caused any loss in confidence. Their bolt action rifles are their bread and butter. If you based this loss in confidence on something being wrong or defective in those bolt action rifles, then yes, you might have a point.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 16, 2017, 12:49:09 PM
I have started to worry about bankruptcy. With the loss of confidence in DT to the point that no one but the most ardent fanboy believes anything DT says, to the failure to even keep QnA deadlines..... It looks really bad. Hope that they cross the finish line with a great product so they can reconcile their missteps.

You're worried about DT going into bankruptcy because people that buy their products are losing confidence in DT? Really? They have an established clientele based on their bolt action rifles. They don't need the MDR to stay in business because they're already established in business and I have never heard anything bad about their bolt action rifles that has caused any loss in confidence. Their bolt action rifles are their bread and butter. If you based this loss in confidence on something being wrong or defective in those bolt action rifles, then yes, you might have a point.

I think the worry is that mishandling money internally at dt could have meant that the sales of their bolt.actions don't actually hold them.afloat anymore.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 16, 2017, 04:42:44 PM
can't recall where i read it but their estimated yearly revenue is 10.5 million.  this might be a reasonable estimate which would mean all they'd need to do is push 1500-2000 precision rifles yearly if that depending on the build.  yeah marketing costs and so does new equipment but i find it unlikely they've hinged their business on a handful of prototypes.  let's not forget they distribute ammo as well.  sorry frostburg it was never reality to begin with and an unlikely scenario for them i believe.

the reality is...we really dont know what's going on at DT.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: reason on April 16, 2017, 06:39:00 PM
INV136 said:

Quote
You're worried about DT going into bankruptcy because people that buy their products are losing confidence in DT? Really?

Not quite. My concern is that this lack of confidence will cause many to withdraw their preorders and in doing so place DT in a situation where they have lost their funding, as it were.

Quote
They have an established clientele based on their bolt action rifles. They don't need the MDR to stay in business because they're already established in business and I have never heard anything bad about their bolt action rifles that has caused any loss in confidence. Their bolt action rifles are their bread and butter. If you based this loss in confidence on something being wrong or defective in those bolt action rifles, then yes, you might have a point.

I doubt the number of people in the market for such high priced items. Without real numbers for their income to financing the MDR ratio, no one can be so sure as you would like on this. As for the notion that an established confindence in their bolt action rifles somehow would mitigate for their behaviour in regards to the MDR, that is a false equivalence. I say again, anyone excusing the business methods of DT with the MDR is simply a sycophant. Yes, I know there are a whole class of people who would take the behaviour of the Shrike debacle as a badge of honor but I consider that to be the type of actions that enable a company to think they can use whatever business methods they want and their loyal sycophants will take it.

I realize there are some people who think its tough to complain about complainers but for those who seek to not enable behavior they dont value, it is a virtue to not sanction such behavior...



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 16, 2017, 08:36:57 PM
This thought has recently occurred to me. We are all waiting, and expecting more delays. Things arn't looking good. We are in the dark. We may be pleasantly surprised, but that could just be the denial talking.

I want to talk about the possibility that the MDR project might sink before it ever launches. Desert Tech may be facing some financial issues potentially, as well. What if after two more delays, DT posts an announcement sincerely apologizing, but the MDR will be "indefinitely delayed," as in being 'shelved?'

It could ruin Desert Tech and they may end up being bought up by another company. We know many people on this site have already canceled their orders, and probably many more who are not even on this site.

If the MDR gets canceled, they will never survive as a company under the same name.  They may be desperate trying to get the MDR finished, and they may be well aware of the dire situation they are now in. For them, it would be a complete catastrophe. 

At this point, I think this may very well be tangible reality.

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty, always with the negative waves...

https://youtu.be/0AEj3LA2vSo (https://youtu.be/0AEj3LA2vSo)

Repeat after me:  Internet forums are not a valid mirror of the real world.

Just because a couple people have claimed they cancelled their order and then planted their flag in a forum and made sure that *everyone* was aware of what they did, does not mean that the same thing is happening in the real world.  I think things would be far worse for DT if they shipped 2000 rifles and then discovered a defect that required a total recall of all units shipped than waiting until things work as they want them to and then shipping the rifle.  Do you remember IWI's original Galil ACE pistol that had to be recalled - every one of them - because of a freaking hole in the receiver?  That had to be done on IWI's dime - return shipment (~$25/unit), the cost of the new receiver and the labor to rebuild the firearm, and then the cost to ship it back to the owner (~$25/unit).  If they shipped 1000 units, the shipping alone is ~$50,000.  Then add in the cost of the labor and new receivers and anything else they had to do, and then all the BS ATF oversight and approval, and what was a very avoidable issue turned into a colossal alpha strike to their cash flow. 

IWI is a large and very diversified company and can absorb that kind of revenue loss; I venture to suspect that it would cause DT a world of hurt the likes of which they've never experienced.

I'm just as annoyed as everyone else at the broken commitments, but I think this kind of negative thinking is going to do no one any good, especially the end user.  The NRA Show is coming up in another week or so, and I suspect hope that we see an announcement that the rifles are shipping/have shipped/or are on the dock waiting to be shipped.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 16, 2017, 08:41:11 PM
if DT wanted money that badly I would think they could have just shipped the rifles sans ejection chute to get them into play and start extra revenue coming in by doing a sort of "soft launch". hell, for that matter they could have released almost ANYTHING as a version 1.0 after they had preorders in hand to justify keeping those dollars and reinvest them as opposed to holding out for a ideal finalized product knowing that delays would guarantee some returns... also, DT has been very open to those who are unhappy to get refunds so it doesn't seem that likely they are in financial straits. They have avoided any of the obvious signs of financial troubles so I would say not to worry.

Regarding the preorders by *DT* (I won't speak to the practices of individual vendors), since the product wasn't ready for shipment when the items were ordered, the money should have gone into an escrow account where it couldn't be touched until product shipped or refunds were requested.  There are other reasons to do this, income tax and sales tax issues being paramount.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 16, 2017, 08:43:59 PM
Playing along though, there has been a lot of interest in the platform in the last couple years so IF they become insolvent and fold there are many companies who would probably pick up the patents on the MDR, rebrand it, and make a fortune as they have the larger manufacturing processes necessary to accomplish it in a short timeframe. Imagine the same rifle being made by Keltec, Remington, or even Colt... while quality and WC would be far less than what DT is known for, they could turn them out in quantity with a short lead time to tool up.

Kel-Tec:  Ten produced per month, by month 10 the gun will already be on revision 3.

Remington:  Barrels bored off center, rifle fires if it's looked at with a "hard stare", and other than the original shipping version no additional parts will ever be made.

Colt:  Price is increased 25%, it gets pitched to everyone in the .gov and .mil communities, and the civilian market is ignored.  Then Colt goes bankrupt again.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 16, 2017, 08:50:37 PM
INV136 said:

Quote
You're worried about DT going into bankruptcy because people that buy their products are losing confidence in DT? Really?

Not quite. My concern is that this lack of confidence will cause many to withdraw their preorders and in doing so place DT in a situation where they have lost their funding, as it were.

Quote
They have an established clientele based on their bolt action rifles. They don't need the MDR to stay in business because they're already established in business and I have never heard anything bad about their bolt action rifles that has caused any loss in confidence. Their bolt action rifles are their bread and butter. If you based this loss in confidence on something being wrong or defective in those bolt action rifles, then yes, you might have a point.

I doubt the number of people in the market for such high priced items. Without real numbers for their income to financing the MDR ratio, no one can be so sure as you would like on this. As for the notion that an established confindence in their bolt action rifles somehow would mitigate for their behaviour in regards to the MDR, that is a false equivalence. I say again, anyone excusing the business methods of DT with the MDR is simply a sycophant. Yes, I know there are a whole class of people who would take the behaviour of the Shrike debacle as a badge of honor but I consider that to be the type of actions that enable a company to think they can use whatever business methods they want and their loyal sycophants will take it.

I realize there are some people who think its tough to complain about complainers but for those who seek to not enable behavior they dont value, it is a virtue to not sanction such behavior...



DT does more than just sell product to civilians.  For example, they recently scored a sizable contract with Brazil.  Do you know what precision rifles are in all the local PD's armories?  I'm sure that DT has seen decent police sales, though.  Just because a PD doesn't have a SWAT team doesn't mean it won't have precision rifles in the armory...my hometown's PD used the county's consolidated SWAT team (officers from all the different member departments were part of the team) and still had several very high end (~$3000-$5000 back in the late 1990s) precision rifles that were never used (but the Chief thought they were cool and so they were budgeted...).

I guess the bottom line is that there are a lot of opportunities out there that DT is probably zeroed into, so seeing their rifles in all the local gunshops isn't a good indicator of their sales.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: LockeCTH on April 17, 2017, 02:13:09 PM
Remington:  Barrels bored off center, rifle fires if it's looked at with a "hard stare", and other than the original shipping version no additional parts will ever be made.

This legitimately made me laugh out loud - well done.

I cringe at the thought of the MDR in Kel-Tec's hands. Sure, they've got a bigger operation, but one of the most exciting things about the MDR to me is that it is NOT a Kel-Tec product, simply because I'd like to see some competition in the area of lefty-friendly .30 caliber bullpups. Currently, Kel-Tec is the ONLY company in that space.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 17, 2017, 05:37:22 PM
Remington:  Barrels bored off center, rifle fires if it's looked at with a "hard stare", and other than the original shipping version no additional parts will ever be made.

This legitimately made me laugh out loud - well done.

In the past few days I've worked quotes from Darth Vader and Oddball into my comments, I thought it was time to channel Paddington Bear, too.   ;D


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: spector762 on April 17, 2017, 06:05:17 PM
well my ship date moved to may15 now


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 17, 2017, 06:49:06 PM
well my ship date moved to may15 now

seems to be a recurring theme in the industry...cabela's cancelled preorders for the new cz p10c that was supposed to be due out in dec, jan, feb...now pushed to june although some are swearing april still which doesn't leave much time for that reality.  oh well, nothing like shopping for other handguns to pass the time.   


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: dimitry on April 17, 2017, 06:52:51 PM
I somehow doubt bankruptcy is a possibility considering the fortune Desert Tech raked in with their pre-order scheme.

Considering how much money they made from the pre-order scheme, they could have lived off the interest alone. These pre-orders were basically interest-free loans given to Desert Tech to fund their R&D.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: spector762 on April 17, 2017, 07:03:15 PM
well my ship date moved to may15 now

seems to be a recurring theme in the industry...cabela's cancelled preorders for the new cz p10c that was supposed to be due out in dec, jan, feb...now pushed to june although some are swearing april still which doesn't leave much time for that reality.  oh well, nothing like shopping for other handguns to pass the time.    
i want that pistol as well looks like a promising handgun at least mac got one and reviewed it


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HunterDiver on April 18, 2017, 12:40:49 PM
"Kel-Tec:  Ten produced per month, by month 10 the gun will already be on revision 3.

Remington:  Barrels bored off center, rifle fires if it's looked at with a "hard stare", and other than the original shipping version no additional parts will ever be made.

Colt:  Price is increased 25%, it gets pitched to everyone in the .gov and .mil communities, and the civilian market is ignored.  Then Colt goes bankrupt again."

How about a Steyr MDR?  The idea of an MDR built alongside an AUG!

Mike


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Slateman on April 18, 2017, 12:56:53 PM
I'm not sure there is anything we can infer about DT's economic situation from the creation of this rifle, other than, maybe, the types of inferments we can make based on other businesses that have launched new projects.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: OldFamilyRed on April 18, 2017, 01:07:41 PM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 18, 2017, 08:09:44 PM
"Kel-Tec:  Ten produced per month, by month 10 the gun will already be on revision 3.

Remington:  Barrels bored off center, rifle fires if it's looked at with a "hard stare", and other than the original shipping version no additional parts will ever be made.

Colt:  Price is increased 25%, it gets pitched to everyone in the .gov and .mil communities, and the civilian market is ignored.  Then Colt goes bankrupt again."

How about a Steyr MDR?  The idea of an MDR built alongside an AUG!

Mike

That would be as bad as HK building the MDR...they pay lipservice to the consumer market and might come out with what you want today in twenty years...if Steyr Austria decides they don't have any more pressing things to do.  And then they might just say the he11 with it and go down to the bar and hoist a couple pints while laughing at the plight of the US consumer.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 18, 2017, 08:10:45 PM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



What DT bankruptcy?  Where is there even one concrete shred of evidence other than someone speculating about it on the internet?  This is how stupid ideas become stupid rumors that people then defend as "fact".


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Slateman on April 18, 2017, 08:40:29 PM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



What DT bankruptcy?  Where is there even one concrete shred of evidence other than someone speculating about it on the internet?  This is how stupid ideas become stupid rumors that people then defend as "fact".

Uh, this thread bro? DT has already laid of employees.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Siris on April 18, 2017, 09:00:58 PM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



What DT bankruptcy?  Where is there even one concrete shred of evidence other than someone speculating about it on the internet?  This is how stupid ideas become stupid rumors that people then defend as "fact".

Uh, this thread bro? DT has already laid of employees.

I laid off a bartender last week, and my sales are at record levels, pretty sure I'm not bankrupt.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 18, 2017, 09:03:11 PM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



What DT bankruptcy?  Where is there even one concrete shred of evidence other than someone speculating about it on the internet?  This is how stupid ideas become stupid rumors that people then defend as "fact".

Uh, this thread bro? DT has already laid of employees.

I saw nothing that said DT laid off employees...unless I missed it.  Care to point it out for me?  What I did see was rampant and ill-informed speculation.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 18, 2017, 09:11:15 PM
Honestly who gives a s*** if DT goes bankrupt? Im willing to bet less than 5 years down the line we will see bullpups of equal or greater capabilities than the MDR so I'm not too worried.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 18, 2017, 10:17:40 PM

What I did see was rampant and ill-informed speculation.

Yeah, I agree, Desert-Tech releasing the MDR anytime soon is a pretty idiotic thing to believe.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 18, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
Honestly who gives a s*** if DT goes bankrupt?

lol...every person who pre-ordered gives a sh!t.  do you think those who pre-ordered want to wait on refund checks from DT, or responses from them if they haven't received refund, in the midst of DT filing for bankruptcy while auctioning off their intellectual property?  short answer>>>hell the f#%k no!


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 18, 2017, 10:55:11 PM
lol...every person who pre-ordered gives a sh!t.  do you think those who pre-ordered want to wait on refund checks from DT, or responses from them if they haven't received refund, in the midst of DT filing for bankruptcy while auctioning off their intellectual property?  short answer>>>hell the f#%k no!
Oh right, I forgot there were still folks who are willing to pay an obscene amount of money for something that might not materialize.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 18, 2017, 11:55:05 PM
Slateman, Whoops, and Grifter, you made my eyes roll so hard that I think I sprained something. Thanks ever so much!  ::)  ::)  :-\


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: 1154 on April 19, 2017, 12:41:35 AM

Oh right, I forgot there were still folks who are willing to pay an obscene amount of money for something that might not materialize.
[/quote]

Excellent.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 19, 2017, 09:02:25 AM
Slateman, Whoops, and Grifter, you made my eyes roll so hard that I think I sprained something. Thanks ever so much!  ::)  ::)  :-\

I was in the same camp as you at one time, blindly waiting in the DT happy with what I had been shown, that was until Desert-Tech started losing my personal trust (continued delays, out right lies about where they were at in the production process, changing the product without even giving some mention of it to the pre-orders, calling anyone who complained or had questions about anything "a weed that needs to be pulled").

Sorry, I am not drinking the cool-aid without first knowing what is even in it.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 19, 2017, 11:29:15 AM
I have my complaints with them too. But the stupid over-the-top ridiculous slanderous negativity is beyond old. It's really stinking up the place and showing you to be someone that makes me wish for an ignore feature on this board.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on April 19, 2017, 11:58:34 AM
Honestly who gives a s*** if DT goes bankrupt?

lol...every person who pre-ordered gives a sh!t.  do you think those who pre-ordered want to wait on refund checks from DT, or responses from them if they haven't received refund, in the midst of DT filing for bankruptcy while auctioning off their intellectual property?  short answer>>>hell the f#%k no!

Why the hell do these trolls come out and spread their BS crap? They obviously don't have a dog in this fight. Their the equivalent of the dumbass antifa/anarchist trolls that crash protests wearing their dumbass masks with the sole intent to cause riots/fights/assaults and to destroy property and set fires.  ::)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on April 19, 2017, 12:00:45 PM
I have my complaints with them too. But the stupid over-the-top ridiculous slanderous negativity is beyond old. It's really stinking up the place and showing you to be someone that makes me wish for an ignore feature on this board.

Exactly!!


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: BrianK on April 19, 2017, 12:41:17 PM
Yup. I've been wondering for the last few days how to write it nicely.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 19, 2017, 01:34:08 PM
Honestly who gives a s*** if DT goes bankrupt?

lol...every person who pre-ordered gives a sh!t.  do you think those who pre-ordered want to wait on refund checks from DT, or responses from them if they haven't received refund, in the midst of DT filing for bankruptcy while auctioning off their intellectual property?  short answer>>>hell the f#%k no!

Why the hell do these trolls come out and spread their BS crap? They obviously don't have a dog in this fight. Their the equivalent of the dumbass antifa/anarchist trolls that crash protests wearing their dumbass masks with the sole intent to cause riots/fights/assaults and to destroy property and set fires.  ::)

Who are you directing this towards? 


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 19, 2017, 02:12:28 PM
I have my complaints with them too. But the stupid over-the-top ridiculous slanderous negativity is beyond old. It's really stinking up the place and showing you to be someone that makes me wish for an ignore feature on this board.
There is a built in ignore feature on this board. It's called the log out button.

Also, I think the idea that someone who didn't put money down on a product that would potentially never exist doesn't also have a dog in this is kinda short sighted. Of course they do, as people involved in the industry and interested in bullpups most of us really want to see the MDR succeed. The problems we are identifying come from the industry being able to get away with so much BS and have dummies continue to go "hey guise I think my kumbaya song if really gone convince DT to release the MDR let's give them some more leeway'. The problem isn't the time, the problem is the lies and the generally poor business practices.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 19, 2017, 04:22:29 PM
So pretty much anyone with an opinion other than "Desert-Tech is the best, The MDR is the revolution!" is simply not welcome? Even those with logical opinion on an open forum with free speech allowed??


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 19, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
And if a couple of harmless jokes are enough to hurt your feelings, perhaps the internet is going to be a rough place for you.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 19, 2017, 05:33:51 PM
There is a built in ignore feature on this board. It's called the log out button.

Don't be silly. (Oops, too late.)

Quote
Also, I think the idea that someone who didn't put money down on a product that would potentially never exist doesn't also have a dog in this is kinda short sighted.

You do realize that I've actually held one in my hot little hands, don't you? I even got to dry fire it. (Nice trigger for any gun, let alone a bullpup!) They do exist.

The only reason they would not ship at all would be if DT goes bankrupt, which has already been pointed out to be WILDY speculative. Whether or not they will be a success is a much more reasonable question. But flogging the "never exist" trash when it already does is why I'm bother to push back against the stupid trolling.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Ditcher on April 19, 2017, 07:19:44 PM
 :popcorn


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: spector762 on April 19, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
looks like a few people are off the meds on this form no people the little green men arnt going to touch you


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 19, 2017, 07:45:46 PM
I have my complaints with them too. But the stupid over-the-top ridiculous slanderous negativity is beyond old. It's really stinking up the place and showing you to be someone that makes me wish for an ignore feature on this board.

A very big +1!


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 19, 2017, 07:50:04 PM
So pretty much anyone with an opinion other than "Desert-Tech is the best, The MDR is the revolution!" is simply not welcome? Even those with logical opinion on an open forum with free speech allowed??

That's not what anyone is saying.  The negativity by people who are not even involved with purchasing (i.e. put money down already) is off the charts and the negative speculation is being repeated so often and so vehemently that people are starting to take it as fact.  If you're so unhappy, why are you trying to make everyone else unhappy, too?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: spector762 on April 19, 2017, 08:23:12 PM
So pretty much anyone with an opinion other than "Desert-Tech is the best, The MDR is the revolution!" is simply not welcome? Even those with logical opinion on an open forum with free speech allowed??

That's not what anyone is saying.  The negativity by people who are not even involved with purchasing (i.e. put money down already) is off the charts and the negative speculation is being repeated so often and so vehemently that people are starting to take it as fact.  If you're so unhappy, why are you trying to make everyone else unhappy, too?
totally agree despite the delays i can't wait to own the mdr


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 19, 2017, 09:02:26 PM
There is a built in ignore feature on this board. It's called the log out button.

Don't be silly. (Oops, too late.)

Quote
Also, I think the idea that someone who didn't put money down on a product that would potentially never exist doesn't also have a dog in this is kinda short sighted.

You do realize that I've actually held one in my hot little hands, don't you? I even got to dry fire it. (Nice trigger for any gun, let alone a bullpup!) They do exist.

The only reason they would not ship at all would be if DT goes bankrupt, which has already been pointed out to be WILDY speculative. Whether or not they will be a success is a much more reasonable question. But flogging the "never exist" trash when it already does is why I'm bother to push back against the stupid trolling.

I wasn't saying there weren't models out there, I'm saying YOUR MDR might never exist, not the MDR in the general sense.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: sampitt on April 19, 2017, 09:16:12 PM
This is such a dumb thread.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: o2mover on April 19, 2017, 10:44:08 PM
Dt is apt to supply the Mdr just to get the whiners,  pissers and moaners just to pie hole, not because they want to make money. It has gotten very old for those if us who read the posts hoping to glean some encouraging info, but instead end up trying to determine if the message is full of speculation and negativity so they can skip it.
I think a big cup of shut the #$%& up is in order.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 19, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
Can i get a D?....can i get an E?....can i get an S?....can i get......  :cheerleader


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: bpguy on April 19, 2017, 11:51:47 PM
can't recall where i read it but their estimated yearly revenue is 10.5 million.  this might be a reasonable estimate which would mean all they'd need to do is push 1500-2000 precision rifles yearly if that depending on the build.  yeah marketing costs and so does new equipment but i find it unlikely they've hinged their business on a handful of prototypes.  let's not forget they distribute ammo as well.  sorry frostburg it was never reality to begin with and an unlikely scenario for them i believe.

the reality is...we really dont know what's going on at DT.
If you look at the latest 2015 ATF report.  DT reported 709 rifles built in 2015.  They may be in trouble with the finances with all of the engineering and development time the MDR is taking.  How many years have they been saying they will be shipping next month????


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Chief Master on April 20, 2017, 12:02:10 AM
Can i get a D?....can i get an E?....can i get an S?....can i get......  :cheerleader

DESPARATE?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 20, 2017, 12:08:55 AM
can't recall where i read it but their estimated yearly revenue is 10.5 million.  this might be a reasonable estimate which would mean all they'd need to do is push 1500-2000 precision rifles yearly if that depending on the build.  yeah marketing costs and so does new equipment but i find it unlikely they've hinged their business on a handful of prototypes.  let's not forget they distribute ammo as well.  sorry frostburg it was never reality to begin with and an unlikely scenario for them i believe.

the reality is...we really dont know what's going on at DT.
If you look at the latest 2015 ATF report.  DT reported 709 rifles built in 2015.  They may be in trouble with the finances with all of the engineering and development time the MDR is taking.  How many years have they been saying they will be shipping next month????

lol...the two links below should put this to bed.  a company who's turned down a 15 million dollar contract in recent years and just added a contract with the czech MoD for 3 million...surely among others...one would guess isn't struggling or at the very least is sustainable.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/05/desert-tech-utah-gunmaker-turns-down-15-million-deal-with-pakistan.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/05/desert-tech-utah-gunmaker-turns-down-15-million-deal-with-pakistan.html)

http://www.janes.com/article/68822/czech-armed-forces-order-desert-tech-hti-sniper-rifles (http://www.janes.com/article/68822/czech-armed-forces-order-desert-tech-hti-sniper-rifles)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 20, 2017, 12:12:55 AM
Can i get a D?....can i get an E?....can i get an S?....can i get......  :cheerleader

DESPARATE?

haha...i was going to write 'DESERTED'...   man, that works...'Deserted Tech'!  nah, you're lucky i got to 'S'...wasn't about to copy and paste that sh!t to complete 'desert tech'.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Nomad07 on April 20, 2017, 01:30:59 PM
can't recall where i read it but their estimated yearly revenue is 10.5 million.  this might be a reasonable estimate which would mean all they'd need to do is push 1500-2000 precision rifles yearly if that depending on the build.  yeah marketing costs and so does new equipment but i find it unlikely they've hinged their business on a handful of prototypes.  let's not forget they distribute ammo as well.  sorry frostburg it was never reality to begin with and an unlikely scenario for them i believe.

the reality is...we really dont know what's going on at DT.
If you look at the latest 2015 ATF report.  DT reported 709 rifles built in 2015.  They may be in trouble with the finances with all of the engineering and development time the MDR is taking.  How many years have they been saying they will be shipping next month????

Well since last julyish...so 11 months???? That is suddenly years?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: charliegotnolove on April 21, 2017, 08:45:15 AM
I have started to worry about bankruptcy. With the loss of confidence in DT to the point that no one but the most ardent fanboy believes anything DT says, to the failure to even keep QnA deadlines..... It looks really bad. Hope that they cross the finish line with a great product so they can reconcile their missteps.

You're worried about DT going into bankruptcy because people that buy their products are losing confidence in DT? Really? They have an established clientele based on their bolt action rifles. They don't need the MDR to stay in business because they're already established in business and I have never heard anything bad about their bolt action rifles that has caused any loss in confidence. Their bolt action rifles are their bread and butter. If you based this loss in confidence on something being wrong or defective in those bolt action rifles, then yes, you might have a point.

They might have a solid line of bolt actions.  But they are cost prohibitive.  I would be surprised if they move less than 10 a month during lulls.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 21, 2017, 10:17:44 AM
Well since last julyish...so 11 months???? That is suddenly years?

The earliest estimated date I recall is Christmas 2015. They've clearly and repeatedly underestimated how long it would take to finish the MDR.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Raptor on April 21, 2017, 10:59:56 AM
The Desert Tech bankruptcy is going to totally f*** up the Airsoft MDR sales.



What DT bankruptcy?  Where is there even one concrete shred of evidence other than someone speculating about it on the internet?  This is how stupid ideas become stupid rumors that people then defend as "fact".


Sorry Kurt, but it is fact. I read it on an Internet BullPup forum.  ;-)

<JK> for all those who not get my humor.

~Raptor


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Raptor on April 21, 2017, 11:06:23 AM

You do realize that I've actually held one in my hot little hands, don't you? I even got to dry fire it. (Nice trigger for any gun, let alone a bullpup!) They do exist.


If I get to hold one at the NRA meeting I'm gonna squeeze the trigger then comment to the DT rep "It doesn't kick as bad as the internet posts say it does". ;-)


~Raptor



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Raptor on April 21, 2017, 11:12:11 AM
can't recall where i read it but their estimated yearly revenue is 10.5 million.  this might be a reasonable estimate which would mean all they'd need to do is push 1500-2000 precision rifles yearly if that depending on the build.  yeah marketing costs and so does new equipment but i find it unlikely they've hinged their business on a handful of prototypes.  let's not forget they distribute ammo as well.  sorry frostburg it was never reality to begin with and an unlikely scenario for them i believe.

the reality is...we really dont know what's going on at DT.
If you look at the latest 2015 ATF report.  DT reported 709 rifles built in 2015.  They may be in trouble with the finances with all of the engineering and development time the MDR is taking.  How many years have they been saying they will be shipping next month????

lol...the two links below should put this to bed.  a company who's turned down a 15 million dollar contract in recent years and just added a contract with the czech MoD for 3 million...surely among others...one would guess isn't struggling or at the very least is sustainable.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/05/desert-tech-utah-gunmaker-turns-down-15-million-deal-with-pakistan.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/05/desert-tech-utah-gunmaker-turns-down-15-million-deal-with-pakistan.html)

http://www.janes.com/article/68822/czech-armed-forces-order-desert-tech-hti-sniper-rifles (http://www.janes.com/article/68822/czech-armed-forces-order-desert-tech-hti-sniper-rifles)


I remember when they turned down the Paki order and had/have MUCH RESPECT for Nick and the DT team because of that.  However that was way back in 2013 (news posted it in 2014 about the time that the MDR first showed it's glimmer at Shot.


~Raptor



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Raptor on April 21, 2017, 11:43:01 AM
I know many have ragged on the OP for this post. Personally I think discussions are a good thing. I'd prefer it be in the Group buy area to keep it out of the public arena and in an area that is for those with skin in the game, however that is just my opinion.

What I do find comical as some find this post are the following:
1) IF they were to seek bankruptcy protection folks claiming they'd have their money back.  The purpose for companies to file for protection is so they don't have to pay their debtors (or pennies on the dollar to secured debtors of which we are NOT).

2) Those claiming it can't or won't happen because the MDR is not their only line of products. Let's not forget
- They added on to existing buildings
- Purchased (or leased) several CNC milling machines (way expensive)
- Purchased other equipment
- Paid for training on the new equipment (or added staff)
  -- It's possible that training was included in the overall price but those in the know, know that nothing is free and the costs are built into the price in advance.
- Paid a lot for R&D, and more D, with some more D, and some more post production D[2] (D squared)
- Dedicated many staff members to the endeavor of designing, building, testing (all times 30) for the MDR and not other products
- Probably made financial commitments to investors (bankers/loans) on a payback schedule based on MDR sales. So they may have been using the deposits for those reasons, many people requesting refunds will require the funding from elsewhere (aka Rob Peter to pay Paul).

3) If another company buys the patent, or the company, I'm sure (yes my opinion based on experience) would come without prior burdens of DT commitments on the MDR. This can and has been done many times even years later.
 - Think about AT&T purchasing a smaller Bell many years ago but reneging on the smaller Bell's pension and retirement benefits, YES even for those retired years before the purchase. They justified it to the court that they could not purchase the smaller Bell with those previous financial commitments so it was approved. Granted Utility companies are a different ballgame but that is not the only incidence of something like this happening.

This has not been a cheap endeavor for them and I know the constant delays have to be hurting them even if it does not bury them.

Like I have said previously I am gambling on the MDR, but I would recommend other's to do the same especially if you have had money in the game for many months. If you paid the minimum and it will break you to loose, that was a bad choice IMO. If you paid full price then you definitely should not break you to loose it.
- I'm not saying you will loose it but everything in life is a gamble (like using Apple or Droid phones and thinking you're not seriously exposed).

My $0.02 cents (pre-tax of course; after tax it ain't worth $h!t)


~Raptor





Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Glorfindel on April 21, 2017, 01:54:46 PM
On the subject of Desert Tech solvency...

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/21/idex-2017-caracal-license-producing-sig-p320-distributing-desert-tech-sniper-rifles/         (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/21/idex-2017-caracal-license-producing-sig-p320-distributing-desert-tech-sniper-rifles/)



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Nomad07 on April 22, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
Well since last julyish...so 11 months???? That is suddenly years?

The earliest estimated date I recall is Christmas 2015. They've clearly and repeatedly underestimated how long it would take to finish the MDR.

And did anyone pay money for a christmad 2015 release???? The constant complaining about how money has been tied up for "years" is what is constantly being repeated, making it sound like DT took peoples money in 2014 and havr been sitting on it. Far as im concerned, their "official realease" was the one they stated AFTER they took money...whivh is june/july 2016.



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Chief Master on April 22, 2017, 05:28:21 PM
Far as im concerned, their "official realease" was the one they stated AFTER they took money...whivh is june/july 2016.

I would argue that the "official release" you're talking about would be what the company claimed AS they were taking preorders...which was that MDRs were currently "in production."


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: hillbillyjim on April 22, 2017, 07:41:07 PM
If they were desperate they could have just released an inferior product then did a recall later just to get the ball moving.  I love that they want to send out a finished product that won't have a bunch of bugs.  I hate that I paid half the money over a year ago with bad communication from all parties involved.  I just bought another scar I might cancel my preorder.  But I am going to wait for news first coming out of NRA show


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Nomad07 on April 23, 2017, 12:37:05 PM
Far as im concerned, their "official realease" was the one they stated AFTER they took money...whivh is june/july 2016.

I would argue that the "official release" you're talking about would be what the company claimed AS they were taking preorders...which was that MDRs were currently "in production."

Sure, u can see it that way no biggie... but people are having fits and saying sht like, "delayed for years" and "DT has had peoples money for years without a product..." etc. Thats my issue, ya its late, but damn, its not 3 years overdue like some are hyperventillating about


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 23, 2017, 01:16:15 PM
http://www.guns.com/2015/07/07/shaping-up-desert-techs-mdr-bullpup-in-2015/

"In the 18 months since the MDR was announced the team has been hard at work testing the design and making improvements based on independent user feedback, and now Desert Tech is setting a target for delivery: six months on the outside, potentially sooner. In order to meet that deadline, Desert Tech hired on SIG Sauer developer Cory Newman."

Clearly states "DELIVERY: Six months, possibly sooner"


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 23, 2017, 08:22:13 PM
http://www.guns.com/2015/07/07/shaping-up-desert-techs-mdr-bullpup-in-2015/

"In the 18 months since the MDR was announced the team has been hard at work testing the design and making improvements based on independent user feedback, and now Desert Tech is setting a target for delivery: six months on the outside, potentially sooner. In order to meet that deadline, Desert Tech hired on SIG Sauer developer Cory Newman."

Clearly states "DELIVERY: Six months, possibly sooner"

Don't go Full NY Times on us and selectively quote and parse...  "...Desert Tech is setting a *target* for delivery..." 


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 23, 2017, 10:01:09 PM




Don't go Full NY Times on us and selectively quote and parse...  "...Desert Tech is setting a *target* for delivery..." 

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/c9/c9e1095062393a24dab581243efc2de1caad68a4a78377fcb4a8fe54472060f1.jpg)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 23, 2017, 10:13:04 PM
Far as im concerned, their "official realease" was the one they stated AFTER they took money...whivh is june/july 2016.

I would argue that the "official release" you're talking about would be what the company claimed AS they were taking preorders...which was that MDRs were currently "in production."

Sure, u can see it that way no biggie... but people are having fits and saying sht like, "delayed for years" and "DT has had peoples money for years without a product..." etc. Thats my issue, ya its late, but damn, its not 3 years overdue like some are hyperventillating about

That there is more reason to complain when DT shifts dates after they've taken peoples' money is a fair point. Dates prior to that were much more wishful simply because they were still in active development, which was supposed to have been finished and starting production when they started taking orders.

I just think it's necessary to point out that their problems with date estimates started before then, even if it was less firm.

FYI, I remember seeing a cartoon of a programmer climbing down a chimney with version 2.0 of his software package for Christmas. It turned out to be released nearly 2 years later. 30 years later they're doing amazing things as they continue to expand that software. This is not a problem that's unique to DT, or even just the firearms industry. Short term problems do not necessarily mean total failure is guaranteed.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 23, 2017, 10:27:37 PM




Don't go Full NY Times on us and selectively quote and parse...  "...Desert Tech is setting a *target* for delivery..." 

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/c9/c9e1095062393a24dab581243efc2de1caad68a4a78377fcb4a8fe54472060f1.jpg)


No...you did selectively quote what was said; at least be honest enough to admit it.  Or just find something else to pick at and make a crisis out of.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Grifter on April 23, 2017, 10:45:51 PM
Ha, you're a funny man.

To say that I failed to quote the word "Target" and as such this one word completely excuses 2 years of delays. Go f*** yourself.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 24, 2017, 12:17:26 AM
Ha, you're a funny man.

To say that I failed to quote the word "Target" and as such this one word completely excuses 2 years of delays. Go f*** yourself.

I never said that.  What I did say was that you selectively edited what was said to make it appear as if they said something completely different.  Delays happen and the only real blame I can lay at DT's feet is that they failed to clearly and effectively communicate why things were delayed and do it in a proactive, timely manner, and then made promises too early in the game that they then were unable to keep/meet.

As others have said, it's been a year since they announced a shipping date, and if they ship before June, then they'll be a year late, not two years and not years, based off the original date once they took pre-orders.

As for your ad hominem attack, did it make you feel good?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 24, 2017, 01:49:08 AM
Delays happen and the only real blame I can lay at DT's feet is that they failed to clearly and effectively communicate why things were delayed and do it in a proactive, timely manner, and then made promises too early in the game that they then were unable to keep/meet.

would you deem it logical to think that DT deliberately lied to amass preorders?

MDR Announcements

Jan 20, 2016
"Desert Tech has announced that it has begun production of the much anticipated Micro Dynamic Rifle (MDR)..."
"Orders are expected to ship to dealers 2nd quarter 2016."

or are you really going to sell us 'delays happen'?  either you truly believe they've got idiots over there running the show or maybe just maybe there's been much more deliberation on their behalf regarding course of action.

oh and KB...the first question was rhetorical.  of course they lied to us.



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 24, 2017, 09:08:41 AM
Delays happen and the only real blame I can lay at DT's feet is that they failed to clearly and effectively communicate why things were delayed and do it in a proactive, timely manner, and then made promises too early in the game that they then were unable to keep/meet.

would you deem it logical to think that DT deliberately lied to amass preorders?

MDR Announcements

Jan 20, 2016
"Desert Tech has announced that it has begun production of the much anticipated Micro Dynamic Rifle (MDR)..."
"Orders are expected to ship to dealers 2nd quarter 2016."

or are you really going to sell us 'delays happen'?  either you truly believe they've got idiots over there running the show or maybe just maybe there's been much more deliberation on their behalf regarding course of action.

oh and KB...the first question was rhetorical.  of course they lied to us.


Kfelt would support DT if they shoved a rotten stick in our hands and said "here's your MDR'. He would compliment the weight savings.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 24, 2017, 10:09:10 AM
Whoops is at it again.  ::)  ::)  ::)

Not cool. Not cool at all.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 24, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
Delays happen and the only real blame I can lay at DT's feet is that they failed to clearly and effectively communicate why things were delayed and do it in a proactive, timely manner, and then made promises too early in the game that they then were unable to keep/meet.

would you deem it logical to think that DT deliberately lied to amass preorders?

MDR Announcements

Jan 20, 2016
"Desert Tech has announced that it has begun production of the much anticipated Micro Dynamic Rifle (MDR)..."
"Orders are expected to ship to dealers 2nd quarter 2016."

or are you really going to sell us 'delays happen'?  either you truly believe they've got idiots over there running the show or maybe just maybe there's been much more deliberation on their behalf regarding course of action.

oh and KB...the first question was rhetorical.  of course they lied to us.



Rhetorical question or not, I look for intent, HBeretta.  Did DT *intentionally* lie?  No, I don't think it was intentional, just that circumstance rendered what they said void and the perception then became "DT lied!" 

Yes, delays do happen.  I've been in both hardware development and software development and know that any sort of timeline projection is just that, a projection.  Unexpected things happen, there's scope creep that no one notices because there's no "man on the outside" auditing the process, and then there are act's of God that no one can foresee or forecast that all combine to make any sort of timetable difficult.  That said, I don't accept that "they've got idiots" running the show, but I do believe that what we're seeing is a group that is extremely enthusiastic about what they're doing and just aren't good communicators.  It's easy to get caught up in the little details and lose sight of the bigger picture, which could be part of the problem; solve this little problem and then we'll be good to go!  Only that little problem was simply a stumbling block for you to move forward on two other issues and so on.

Bottom line is that I think they've been communicating in good faith even though they probably should have known/realized that what they were saying was overly optimistic and tempered delivery expectations more. 


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 24, 2017, 10:27:47 AM
Delays happen and the only real blame I can lay at DT's feet is that they failed to clearly and effectively communicate why things were delayed and do it in a proactive, timely manner, and then made promises too early in the game that they then were unable to keep/meet.

would you deem it logical to think that DT deliberately lied to amass preorders?

MDR Announcements

Jan 20, 2016
"Desert Tech has announced that it has begun production of the much anticipated Micro Dynamic Rifle (MDR)..."
"Orders are expected to ship to dealers 2nd quarter 2016."

or are you really going to sell us 'delays happen'?  either you truly believe they've got idiots over there running the show or maybe just maybe there's been much more deliberation on their behalf regarding course of action.

oh and KB...the first question was rhetorical.  of course they lied to us.


Kfelt would support DT if they shoved a rotten stick in our hands and said "here's your MDR'. He would compliment the weight savings.

Here's your sign, Whoops...


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on April 24, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
Haters gonna hate. ::) That's what they do. Sometimes you just have to ignore them and let them vent so maybe one day they will get over it. ;)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 24, 2017, 11:59:57 AM
Haters gonna hate. ::) That's what they do. Sometimes you just have to ignore them and let them vent so maybe one day they will get over it. ;)

lol...>"haters gonna hate"...INV136 you need to learn some rhetoric dude instead of taking everything at face value.  hell you can't even pick up on when ppl are joking around or not in these threads.  

debating that DT lied...how the f#%k does that make anyone a hater?  or are you buying into the whole "we've started production" over a year ago rolling out a preorder program with the announcement and here we are over a year later.  if you're that gullible then let me borrow $2500...i promise i'll pay you back.  

lol...haters...dude at least make the effort to read through an entire thread instead of cherry picking a phrase and jumping to an idiotic statement.   :?!?



Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 24, 2017, 12:41:49 PM

lol...haters...dude at least make the effort to read through an entire thread instead of cherry picking a phrase and jumping to an idiotic statement.   :?!?


Given the level of vitriol that's been directed at me, HBeretta, I agree with INV136.  It's ok to disagree, but it's not ok to be disagreeable, and that's what some are turning this into.  I don't mind the back and forth, even some *good natured* ribbing, but some people are taking it beyond that to direct personal attacks and that sort of ruins it for everyone when it devolves like that.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: BrianK on April 24, 2017, 12:57:30 PM
Sometimes it's difficult to know if someone is joking from the printed word. That's exactly why emoticons were developed, but not everyone uses them. That just leaves others to fill in emotion as they wish. It's not up to the reader to somehow divine what was intended for emotion, it's up to the writer to do so.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: o2mover on April 24, 2017, 03:00:14 PM
Habitual complainer,  self proscribed judge and jury,  rabble-rouser,  demagogue,  someone who stands to cast the first stone,  troublemaker, unproductive, agitator,  provocateur,  inexperienced, unforgiving, misguided, etc.......
some words that may be used toward participants in this thread.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 24, 2017, 03:32:42 PM
Just to be clear for the nerds who dont realize this, I have a problem with DT. I am actually very excited about the MDR and want one, but I think DT has bad business practices.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 24, 2017, 04:13:59 PM
Sometimes it's difficult to know if someone is joking from the printed word. That's exactly why emoticons were developed, but not everyone uses them. That just leaves others to fill in emotion as they wish. It's not up to the reader to somehow divine what was intended for emotion, it's up to the writer to do so.

Brian likewise just as easy to know someone IS through written statements, i'm sure you'd agree.  My comment to INV136 wasn't generalized...was solely directed at INV136 which is pretty obvious.  dude made a disparaging comment towards myself and another quoting us both on loose hypotheticals...you bet i'll voice my opinion.



 

  


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 24, 2017, 04:36:47 PM

lol...haters...dude at least make the effort to read through an entire thread instead of cherry picking a phrase and jumping to an idiotic statement.   :?!?


Given the level of vitriol that's been directed at me, HBeretta, I agree with INV136.

i just found his self-righteous 'high road' stance entertaining...suggesting haters should be ignored...until in his case...he snaps and starts calling those haters..."dumbass antifa# trolls" when taking what was written out of context.

i don't disagree with your statement that sh!t has been slung your way.  you've been a good sport about it and i'm cool with the content you put down here whether it sparks debate or not...don't have a problem with you.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: CAP1400 on April 24, 2017, 04:47:39 PM
The way I see it, a lot of people have legitimate gripes with DT, given their shoddy practices these past few years. Don't dismiss anyone who complains as just "haters bringing down the mood".

And just in case someone brings up "some people will never be satisfied", those people are in the minority. The majority of detractors are legitimately pissed and will probably calm down when they get their MDR.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 24, 2017, 07:00:40 PM
I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied, with the MDR, but I thinK that DT and other companies should be looking at this and thinking about how to avoid it in the future. One big point- stop with saying that your new rifle is 'in production', when it clearly isn't. Stop advertising your rifle at 7.1lbs and only change it all over when you get called out on it. Do not advertise a rifle at 7.1 lbs if that is just your hope.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: spector762 on April 24, 2017, 07:15:16 PM
To be quite honest dt will have to completely f*** up the mdr up to In order to be on the level of a keltech tavor or x95


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 25, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied, with the MDR, but I thinK that DT and other companies should be looking at this and thinking about how to avoid it in the future. One big point- stop with saying that your new rifle is 'in production', when it clearly isn't. Stop advertising your rifle at 7.1lbs and only change it all over when you get called out on it. Do not advertise a rifle at 7.1 lbs if that is just your hope.

The clearest example of DT's lousy communications came from John during Shot Show 2016 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dniw8uOaFU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dniw8uOaFU8) (Interestingly, this was while being interviewed by Hank Strange. Why does DT do the worst job of shooting themselves in the foot during his interviews?)

At 0:25, John states that the rifle he's holding is built from production parts.

At 0:42 he says that would be "the production, delivery model."

At 5:26 he mentions that they're not finished with the optics mount design.

At 6:10 he mentions that they still have to do drop tests, so the trigger might change.

At 9:18 he says the "target weight" on the .308 is about 7.2 pounds and that they were still working to "trim it up". (This means it was always heavier than 7.1 pounds.)

In short, saying that it was in production even though they were still making changes and still needed to do testing was bad, very bad. Advertising their dream weight instead of the actual weight of the finalized design was also bad.

Let's not forget the insanely optimistic 2nd quarter date which he did mention (but I didn't note) that was a companywide black eye. And my personal pet complaint: shipping the 5.56 and .308 versions simultaneously, until "oh wait, not!"

They fully deserve the publicity black eyes that they have earned. My problem with the goings on on this board is when complaints are taken far beyond what they actually have done, taking the most negative spin possible on neutral statements or "this is real life" events, blowing up pebbles in the road into 30-ton boulders, and making insanely speculative, and downright nasty remarks like the "rotten stick" slap.

I'm with you in that DT's reputation has taken a well deserved beating in my own view, too. But I'm still looking forward to it finally shipping. Until that happens, I would rather focus on cool stuff, continue doing cool stuff, and learning new stuff than on beating dead horses into glue and making everything in sight a sticky mess.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Siris on April 25, 2017, 02:27:41 AM
I will now respond to this thread with an interpretive dance

(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/fewins4/a97aa94e347ab8a0a92dd8a4fa21c28118fa77c8ca563b67d20a4081b1e6e561.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/fewins4/media/a97aa94e347ab8a0a92dd8a4fa21c28118fa77c8ca563b67d20a4081b1e6e561.jpg.html)

(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/fewins4/random%20stuff.png) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/fewins4/media/random%20stuff.png.html)

and i'm done


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 25, 2017, 09:28:45 AM
IMHO, the most likely reason the MDR would not have made it to market was if it didn't ship before the Wicked Witch of Washington had won the election. It would surprise me if DT was not also worried about that possibility.

Fortunately, we dodged that particular bullet so it's still legal for DT to make and sell them to us average citizens serfs. I do expect them to ship eventually.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Rick53 on April 25, 2017, 10:26:03 AM
IMHO, the most likely reason the MDR would not have made it to market was if it didn't ship before the Wicked Witch of Washington had won the election. It would surprise me if DT was not also worried about that possibility.

Fortunately, we dodged that particular bullet so it's still legal for DT to make and sell them to us average citizens serfs. I do expect them to ship eventually.
They must see in the meantime they are loosing all kinds of Market Share to other manufactures like IWI,Keltec,FN etc. Theeir lack of response to threads like this seems to tell part if not the REST of THE STORY>


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: becket on April 25, 2017, 03:05:18 PM
I work at a fund that has a vcap department as well as trading (long/short equity, swaps, exotic options, other derivs), and while I am not in the vcap side, I have seen a lot of "side projects" that bankrupt private co's. Just because their mature product line is successful doesn't mean that they aren't underwater on funding the new project. It's not as though there are distinct funding sources... there are not a lot of funding sources for a firm like DT. It's not as tough they have access to receivables financing. So basically they have one general fund for accounting and all A/R flows through it.

As stated previously; they could have rolled out beta-guns and they did not. Shows the level of commitment.

Personally, I'd love to have one but I never buy Gen1 of anything.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: CAP1400 on April 25, 2017, 04:25:26 PM
I do expect them to ship eventually.

Well that's a given. The real kicker is when and with how many more delays  ;)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Daring 6 on April 25, 2017, 08:50:35 PM
I work at a fund that has a vcap department as well as trading (long/short equity, swaps, exotic options, other derivs), and while I am not in the vcap side, I have seen a lot of "side projects" that bankrupt private co's. Just because their mature product line is successful doesn't mean that they aren't underwater on funding the new project. It's not as though their are distinct funding sources... At firms like DT; there aren't a lot of financing options. It's not as tough they have access to receivables financing. So basically they have one general fund for accounting and all A/R flows through it.

As stated previously; they could have rolled out beta-guns and they did not. Shows the level of commitment.

Personally, I'd love to have one but I never buy Gen1 of anything.

Hello " Becket "  :)

That was my personal point of view also about purchasing a Gen 1 of anything ( including firearms ) , and when I made that exact statement in another thread up here , boy did they go after me ! They lopped off my head and handed it back to me on a platter !

Perhaps the " chickens are coming home to roust here " . It will be sad if DT does declare bankruptcy , or go under . A lot of good people up here will be out a lot of big bucks , and will have learned a hard lesson , unfortunately .  8)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 25, 2017, 11:02:37 PM
That was my personal point of view also about purchasing a Gen 1 of anything ( including firearms ) , and when I made that exact statement in another thread up here , boy did they go after me ! They lopped off my head and handed it back to me on a platter !

Computers are a cool thing. Search features make it really easy to find things. For example, here's where you said that: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11289.msg115442#msg115442 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11289.msg115442#msg115442) The funny thing is, I did not see anyone attack you specifically, let alone for that.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Daring 6 on April 26, 2017, 08:10:18 PM
That was my personal point of view also about purchasing a Gen 1 of anything ( including firearms ) , and when I made that exact statement in another thread up here , boy did they go after me ! They lopped off my head and handed it back to me on a platter !

Computers are a cool thing. Search features make it really easy to find things. For example, here's where you said that: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11289.msg115442#msg115442 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11289.msg115442#msg115442) The funny thing is, I did not see anyone attack you specifically, let alone for that.

Close ; but no cigar " EWTHeckman "

You will need to read the thread " Production MDR in 2017 ? " ; They didn't like the question which I asked , and what I had to say . One would think that people up here who support the 2nd Amendment would also support the 1st Amendment , but may be not .  8)


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 26, 2017, 09:18:26 PM
That was my personal point of view also about purchasing a Gen 1 of anything ( including firearms ) , and when I made that exact statement in another thread up here , boy did they go after me ! They lopped off my head and handed it back to me on a platter !

You will need to read the thread " Production MDR in 2017 ? " ; They didn't like the question which I asked , and what I had to say . One would think that people up here who support the 2nd Amendment would also support the 1st Amendment , but may be not .  8)

That would be this thread (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11517.msg118288#msg118288) where you did not say a single word about "Gen 1 of anything", instead, engaging in tasteless taunting.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Ditcher on April 26, 2017, 09:33:05 PM
He is talking about this one I think.

https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11517.0


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 26, 2017, 10:00:12 PM
He is talking about this one I think.

https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11517.0

Regardless, we're tossing breadcrumbs under the bridge and feeding the troll.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 26, 2017, 10:57:03 PM
So does absolutely any disagreement with you make someone a troll?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 27, 2017, 09:03:26 AM
So does absolutely any disagreement with you make someone a troll?

No. Here's a good article that describes trolling: What Is a Troll and Internet Trolling? (https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-internet-trolling-3485891)

Quote
What Does It Really Mean to Go'Trolling' Online?

The Urban Dictionary has a bunch of definitions under the term “trolling,” but the first one that pops up seems to define it as simply as possible. So, according to the Urban Dictionary’s top rated definition for “trolling,” it can be defined as:

Quote
“Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.”

Wikipedia defines it as:

Quote
"Someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”

Those who aren’t quite familiar with the Internet slang definition of “troll” or “trolling” might automatically think of the mythical creature from Scandinavian folklore. The mythological troll is known to be an ugly, dirty, angry creature that lives in dark places, like caves or underneath bridges, waiting to snatch up anything that passed by for a quick meal.

In some ways, the mythological troll is similar to the internet troll. The internet troll hides behind his computer screen, and actively goes out of his way to cause trouble on the Internet. Like the mythological troll, the internet troll is angry and disruptive in every possible – often for no real reason at all.

This article describes just how far trolling can go: What is an internet troll? (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/jun/12/what-is-an-internet-troll)

It makes a good point that I think is worth highlighting:

Quote
…people behave badly online because they feel liberated, and they feel liberated because it's virtual. Our standards of courtesy are bound to our corporeal selves; freed from one we're freed from the other. Calling trolls "trolls" probably doesn't help. We should call them rude people.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 27, 2017, 12:17:40 PM
So does absolutely any disagreement with you make someone a troll?

No.  I don't deal in absolutes and anyone who does is a blind, foaming at the mouth zealot.  What I do see is someone who is being rude and disrupting just because they can and get a kick out of it.  Daring 6 fits that and the definitions that were posted above as a troll.

We can disagree and that's fine, that's good discourse.  However, *how* we disagree is what is important; we can either do it in a respectful manner or in a disrespectful manner.  Once someone crosses the line into disrespectful the way Daring 6 has done, and done gleefully I might add, they move from discussing something as a gentleman to discussing it as a troll.  I don't care what you might have done prior to that event (military hero, developed a cure for cancer, rescued kittens from a Chinese restaurant), you've become a troll and will be branded as such.  Past behavior or employment does not give you a free pass to be a dick.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: EWTHeckman on April 27, 2017, 12:33:59 PM
^^^ This! ^^^


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: reason on April 27, 2017, 12:38:46 PM
Kfeltenberger said:

Quote
No.  I don't deal in absolutes and anyone who does is a blind, foaming at the mouth zealot.[/quote{

Just so you know, this statement is itself, an absolute.... You are reeaffirming what you want to deny by your very statement.  The only skeptic of absolutes with integrity is the one who keeps his mouth shut.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 27, 2017, 12:53:43 PM
Kfeltenberger said:

Quote
No.  I don't deal in absolutes and anyone who does is a blind, foaming at the mouth zealot.

Just so you know, this statement is itself, an absolute.... You are reeaffirming what you want to deny by your very statement.  The only skeptic of absolutes with integrity is the one who keeps his mouth shut.

That's your opinion and one I don't agree with.  That's cool, too.  I also notice you didn't address anything else I said, which is, IMO, the real meat of my position.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Ditcher on April 27, 2017, 01:29:33 PM
rescued kittens from a Chinese restaurant).[/quote]

That one always gets me!


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: BrianK on April 27, 2017, 01:51:34 PM
Trolling also has another meaning that IMO actually fits better here. When used in the context of fishing one puts bait out into the water and slowly motors around waiting for something to take the bait.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: HBeretta on April 27, 2017, 06:51:18 PM
...rescued kittens from a Chinese restaurant)

lol...why'd you have to go there?  i like my kitten stir fry with fish sauce!   ;D

...that had me laughing for a minute.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: BrianK on April 27, 2017, 07:01:01 PM
Sorry!  ;D

But you rescued cats from the chinese restaurant! I never heard that before and I thought it was worth a chuckle.

But seriously, I think the words troll/trolling has more to do with fishing than it has to do with a creature of Norse mythology. It;s just that many folks don't know about trolling, as in fishing.

In the end though, good people act good on the 'net and scumbags also act their part, as the 'net allows them to be what they are. If we were in the scumbags reach he'd be decked in a heartbeat. They know that so their refuge is the 'net where they can be scum to their hearts content and with no physical repercussions.

Basically, good people are good, and bad people are bad, and each act their part. It just reflects the world of today and it's getting worse.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Ditcher on April 27, 2017, 07:15:52 PM
...rescued kittens from a Chinese restaurant)

lol...why'd you have to go there?  i like my kitten stir fry with fish sauce!   ;D

...that had me laughing for a minute.

That might explain why the chicken never really looks like chicken..


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: squiros on April 27, 2017, 10:03:43 PM
just out of curiosity. why not just ship the rifle? if dt is waiting on ejection chutes, simply ship the rifle. then, 3 months down the line, ship the ejection chutes later. it'll cost 3$ extra to ship the small part. and none of the paying customers are angry.

imo the real problem is kel tec's rdb. lightweight, 6.7 lbs for the 5.56. sub moa accuracy - some people are getting .6 moa with match ammo. fully ambidex. runs suppressed better than any other platform. the real problem is that whatever they release now, you can now see that 'rdb does it better'. and another major point - at half the cost.

people who say quality have no idea what they're talking about. the uts per gram of zytel is literally unprecedented at this price point. and in fact, is still competitive at any price point. the fit and finish are irrelevant to its quality. 4140 is the industry standard for high end steel. the only problem with the rdb is some of the pins occasionally run out of spec, but this is standard of every industry in every field. including perceived 'high quality' vendors. unless people are really arguing the crystal lattice structure of kel tec's 4140 is consistently mangled - impurities from introducing weird elements that destabilize the CLS. which makes no sense, a lot of the impurities have high tolerances - much higher than impurities can introduce. for example, tripling Cr concentrations still produce a superior steel with no measurable differences. their heat treats are consistent with blast proofing hardness ratings.
steel has a kg/m^3 of 8000 with a uts 480 MPa
nylon 66 has a 1140 kg/m^3 with a uts of 60..80
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html
for a given weight, nylon 66 is at least as strong as carbon steel.
dupont certifies its 8150 nylon (zytel), meaning the daltons are within spec (the average monomer chain size). this affects its Ultimate Tensile Strength (uts). it's like saying a ferrari with cardboard seat covers is a crap car because its fit and finish are crap.
this will be interesting for dt because we don't have better technology at this point other than carbon fiber. which. . . is much stronger. but the man hours of vacuum bagging cf will make the price at least double from what it is now, good luck dt.

those who wanted a lightweight ambidex bullpup have already bought the rdb. the niche is dead to dt. it makes no sense to put R+D into filling it asap. the market is gone, and dt knows this. so they cut the funding - it's probably near complete. but instead of sprinting to 100% by april, which they could've done, they realize it's not worth it, and have 1 person on it part time (whenever he/she has free time). this is why it keeps getting pushed back. why there are no solid updates. your preorder is the last priority since it's all tied up in a separate account. they probably sold the preorder at minimal profit, so their incentive to fill it is minimal. actual profits in the open market are projected to be poor at best. if you want a refund, they don't care - it's another minimal profit order they lost.




Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 27, 2017, 10:21:33 PM
just out of curiosity. why not just ship the rifle? if dt is waiting on ejection chutes, simply ship the rifle. then, 3 months down the line, ship the ejection chutes later. it'll cost 3$ extra to ship the small part. and none of the paying customers are angry.

This would be a PR blunder of epic proportions.  Imagine if Chevrolet delivered a Camaro without doors and told the buyer, "Register this car and we'll send you the doors when they become available".  First, you're putting the responsibility of registering the product (i.e. confirming to DT that you purchased it and where you live) on the buyer as well as making them fix the problem when DT sends them a replacement part.  Second, you're introducing an enormous opportunity for failure with regards to getting the part *to* the buyer.  Third, what about those MDRs that for whatever reason are either not sold or the owner just puts it in the safe without reading the little tag that says, "Important!  You don't have a whole rifle!"?  Six months, a year, five years down the road, suddenly they're going to realize that the part they expected to be there wasn't.  Fourth, the logistical overhead would delay things even more.

Another analogy is that you went to the store to buy some orange juice because you're really jonesing for some citrus goodness.  You buy a quart of Florida Natural and get home only to find that all that's in it is water...and a note on the side that says, "You can drink this water, and refill it, but we didn't have the flavor ready just yet...register online and we'll send you a pack of gel you can add later..."  Yeah, I think we'd all be disappointed.

As for the RDB owning the niche, only in Kel-tec's wet dreams. 


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: slowcorrado on April 28, 2017, 12:03:59 AM
imo the real problem is kel tec's rdb. lightweight, 6.7 lbs for the 5.56. sub moa accuracy - some people are getting .6 moa with match ammo. fully ambidex. runs suppressed better than any other platform. the real problem is that whatever they release now, you can now see that 'rdb does it better'. and another major point - at half the cost.

This is something I've been really thinking about lately.  I'm one of the strange people who are more interested in the .556 than the .308.  Considering the substantial weight difference, what does the MDR do better?  Are Squiros' claims of a possible .6 moa repeatable?  The MDR has been my grail gun for a while, but I am just sick of DT's idiocy.  Yes, I have heard about the early reliability issues on the RDB.  I've heard that the fit and finish won't be as good as the MDR.  But if I can get a truly ambi bullpup that is sub moa with a reasonable trigger and good reliability/support, why not get in line there for less money?  With the cost of the DT caliber changes, it's almost worth just buying a separate longer range gun and not even worry about swapping. 

Ugh, I'm preordered on the MDR in the earlier "cheaper" group, but have been thinking about bailing.  Maybe I should have made this a separate thread.  LOL.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Frostburg on April 28, 2017, 01:00:03 AM
just out of curiosity. why not just ship the rifle? if dt is waiting on ejection chutes, simply ship the rifle. then, 3 months down the line, ship the ejection chutes later. it'll cost 3$ extra to ship the small part. and none of the paying customers are angry.

This would be a PR blunder of epic proportions.  Imagine if Chevrolet delivered a Camaro without doors and told the buyer, "Register this car and we'll send you the doors when they become available".  First, you're putting the responsibility of registering the product (i.e. confirming to DT that you purchased it and where you live) on the buyer as well as making them fix the problem when DT sends them a replacement part.  Second, you're introducing an enormous opportunity for failure with regards to getting the part *to* the buyer.  Third, what about those MDRs that for whatever reason are either not sold or the owner just puts it in the safe without reading the little tag that says, "Important!  You don't have a whole rifle!"?  Six months, a year, five years down the road, suddenly they're going to realize that the part they expected to be there wasn't.  Fourth, the logistical overhead would delay things even more.

Another analogy is that you went to the store to buy some orange juice because you're really jonesing for some citrus goodness.  You buy a quart of Florida Natural and get home only to find that all that's in it is water...and a note on the side that says, "You can drink this water, and refill it, but we didn't have the flavor ready just yet...register online and we'll send you a pack of gel you can add later..."  Yeah, I think we'd all be disappointed.

As for the RDB owning the niche, only in Kel-tec's wet dreams. 

I don't get why you're so dismissive of the RDB.  It really is comparable to the MDR. It is lightweight, MOA or sub-MOA accurate, ambi-dextrous, ergonomic, fast on target and fast with reloads.
They have some teething issues right now, but those are being worked out.

Can you objectively state what the MDR has on the RDB?


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: knipple on April 28, 2017, 10:52:35 AM
just out of curiosity. why not just ship the rifle? if dt is waiting on ejection chutes, simply ship the rifle. then, 3 months down the line, ship the ejection chutes later. it'll cost 3$ extra to ship the small part. and none of the paying customers are angry.

This would be a PR blunder of epic proportions.  Imagine if Chevrolet delivered a Camaro without doors and told the buyer, "Register this car and we'll send you the doors when they become available".  First, you're putting the responsibility of registering the product (i.e. confirming to DT that you purchased it and where you live) on the buyer as well as making them fix the problem when DT sends them a replacement part.  Second, you're introducing an enormous opportunity for failure with regards to getting the part *to* the buyer.  Third, what about those MDRs that for whatever reason are either not sold or the owner just puts it in the safe without reading the little tag that says, "Important!  You don't have a whole rifle!"?  Six months, a year, five years down the road, suddenly they're going to realize that the part they expected to be there wasn't.  Fourth, the logistical overhead would delay things even more.

Another analogy is that you went to the store to buy some orange juice because you're really jonesing for some citrus goodness.  You buy a quart of Florida Natural and get home only to find that all that's in it is water...and a note on the side that says, "You can drink this water, and refill it, but we didn't have the flavor ready just yet...register online and we'll send you a pack of gel you can add later..."  Yeah, I think we'd all be disappointed.

As for the RDB owning the niche, only in Kel-tec's wet dreams. 

I don't get why you're so dismissive of the RDB.  It really is comparable to the MDR. It is lightweight, MOA or sub-MOA accurate, ambi-dextrous, ergonomic, fast on target and fast with reloads.
They have some teething issues right now, but those are being worked out.

Can you objectively state what the MDR has on the RDB?

The MDR will be available in .308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO, whereas the RDB is only available in 5.56x45 NATO/.223 Remington.  I already have an AR-15 that I like, so I am not interested in another 5.56 NATO rifle.

If Kel-Tec offered the RDB in .308 Winchester (using SR-25 pattern magazines), I would consider the RDB.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: LockeCTH on April 28, 2017, 10:54:53 AM
I don't get why you're so dismissive of the RDB.  It really is comparable to the MDR. It is lightweight, MOA or sub-MOA accurate, ambi-dextrous, ergonomic, fast on target and fast with reloads.
They have some teething issues right now, but those are being worked out.

Can you objectively state what the MDR has on the RDB?

I'm not him, but a chambering in 30 caliber is what I'm excited about. Ironically, Kel-Tec also has this - I just am not happy with the accuracy reports from RFB owners. It's admittedly still probably more accurate than I am, but I'm a goober and that would bother me.

I actually really like the RDB a lot and would have one by now if I had more cash on-hand. But between the two, if the MDR is 3/4 of what it's supposed to be and is ever released, I will grab one of those first and get an RDB further down the road.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: kfeltenberger on April 28, 2017, 03:36:29 PM
Sure...  The MDR comes from a company that has the demonstrated attitude of "get it right before it ships" and comes from a company known for quality. Those are two subjective reasons while objective reasons would be that it can handle 7.62x51mm sized cartridges as well as be configured for smaller ones as well, all without needing anything more complicated than a torque wrench, the controls are better executed and protected, not to mention don't look like something made from an old soup can.

Kel-Tec is a great idea and patent factory, but they should really slow down and fully test their products before moving the design to production where they need to hire a platoon of QC people to make sure that the get it right the first time. The issues that hsve been reported about their products are embarrassing and easily prevented.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Whoops on April 28, 2017, 04:29:41 PM
Sure...  The MDR comes from a company that has the demonstrated attitude of "get it right before it ships" and comes from a company known for quality. Those are two subjective reasons while objective reasons would be that it can handle 7.62x51mm sized cartridges as well as be configured for smaller ones as well, all without needing anything more complicated than a torque wrench, the controls are better executed and protected, not to mention don't look like something made from an old soup can.

Kel-Tec is a great idea and patent factory, but they should really slow down and fully test their products before moving the design to production where they need to hire a platoon of QC people to make sure that the get it right the first time. The issues that hsve been reported about their products are embarrassing and easily prevented.

Despite being an admitted KT fanboy, I gotta agree. I wish KT would spend just a little more time on QC. I've been lucky enough to not have any real issues with their firearms until this year (though tbh I've always had excellent accuracy with them, despite what I've heard from others- guess I'm lucky). I also wish they'd spend like, 6 months making their guns look sexier. I love the way the gen 2 sub 2k looks compared to the gen 1 for example, I think the RDB and RFB could use this treatment too. I also don't like being the OP spring on any firearm if it's not field stripped, but that's just a nitpick for me (then again, it's also the sign of an ingress point).


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Frostburg on April 28, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Sure...  The MDR comes from a company that has the demonstrated attitude of "get it right before it ships" and comes from a company known for quality. Those are two subjective reasons while objective reasons would be that it can handle 7.62x51mm sized cartridges as well as be configured for smaller ones as well, all without needing anything more complicated than a torque wrench, the controls are better executed and protected, not to mention don't look like something made from an old soup can.

Kel-Tec is a great idea and patent factory, but they should really slow down and fully test their products before moving the design to production where they need to hire a platoon of QC people to make sure that the get it right the first time. The issues that hsve been reported about their products are embarrassing and easily prevented.

Well for this argument, I am only referring to the 5.56 rifle. It is disingenuous to compare two rifles of different caliber. To be frank, I have no intention of buying the MDR in .30 cal. I am only interested in the MDR in 5.56.

So the 5.56 user in mind; Objectively, what advantage does the MDR have over the RDB?

Again, the 7.62 argument is only valid if a potential buyer wants the 7.62 version.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Siris on April 28, 2017, 11:38:28 PM
Sure...  The MDR comes from a company that has the demonstrated attitude of "get it right before it ships" and comes from a company known for quality. Those are two subjective reasons while objective reasons would be that it can handle 7.62x51mm sized cartridges as well as be configured for smaller ones as well, all without needing anything more complicated than a torque wrench, the controls are better executed and protected, not to mention don't look like something made from an old soup can.

Kel-Tec is a great idea and patent factory, but they should really slow down and fully test their products before moving the design to production where they need to hire a platoon of QC people to make sure that the get it right the first time. The issues that hsve been reported about their products are embarrassing and easily prevented.

Well for this argument, I am only referring to the 5.56 rifle. It is disingenuous to compare two rifles of different caliber. To be frank, I have no intention of buying the MDR in .30 cal. I am only interested in the MDR in 5.56.

So the 5.56 user in mind; Objectively, what advantage does the MDR have over the RDB?

Again, the 7.62 argument is only valid if a potential buyer wants the 7.62 version.

To be fair that kind of ruins your comparison from the start as the mdr is designed as a 30 call but convrtts to a 556. It's like asking what is the advantage of an m-14 over the 16 but then discounting caliber from that discussion. And yes I know it's not a perfect analogy but I believe it conveys the point.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Frostburg on April 29, 2017, 07:39:08 AM
Not really because the MDR does indeed come as a stand alone 5.56 rifle and there are many people like me who are only interested in the 5.56 MDR. 

I mean, you really can purchase a 5.56 MDR without having the .308 version. For a user of the 5.56 MDR, the comparison is valid.


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: Siris on April 29, 2017, 10:14:46 AM
Not really because the MDR does indeed come as a stand alone 5.56 rifle and there are many people like me who are only interested in the 5.56 MDR. 

I mean, you really can purchase a 5.56 MDR without having the .308 version. For a user of the 5.56 MDR, the comparison is valid.

Purchase yes but regardless the design is such


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: INV136 on May 01, 2017, 01:28:33 PM
I have a 5.56 caliber bullpup rifle. The best one available, the Steyr Aug. I don't have a 7.62 Nato caliber bullpup rifle because the one's currently available (KelTec RFB bullpup and an M14 modification kit gun/ The K&M 7.62 isn't yet available and I don't want one of those either) don't interest me. I want a 7.62 Nato bullpup rifle and would get a Steyr Aug in 7.62 if they made them. They don't. I don't understand why anyone would want a 5.56 caliber MDR. Especially with all the MDR hate going on around this forum. Just get a Steyr Aug or a Tavor and be done with it and this forum. I would. Once I get my MDR I'll move on to other gun interests. 


Title: Re: So it's time to consider the reality of the MDR project
Post by: reason on May 01, 2017, 02:21:13 PM
INV136 said:

Quote
Especially with all the MDR hate going on around this forum. Just get a Steyr Aug or a Tavor and be done with it and this forum. I would. Once I get my MDR I'll move on to other gun interests.

Really? You see alot of people hating the MDR as opposed to frustration against DT's handling of it?