BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => K&M Arms M17S 5.56 and .308 => Topic started by: SkirmishAblated on February 16, 2017, 06:33:36 PM



Title: M17S Reviews
Post by: SkirmishAblated on February 16, 2017, 06:33:36 PM
I've only seen a handful of reviews on the M17S, and no more than two for the 308 version. There's been nothing that has gone into detail about accuracy or reliability, and the following review noted that the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged!

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/02/gun-test-km-arms-m17s-carbine/ (http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/02/gun-test-km-arms-m17s-carbine/)

I keep hoping for some in-depth testing by one of the more notable youtubers or publications. Has anyone seen anything like that, maybe something that just flew under my radar? Ken, are there any plans to get a rifle in the hands of some of the more well-known youtubers?

Thanks.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 16, 2017, 06:56:58 PM
Currently hank strange has one. https://www.full30.com/video/b71ac83f886c64ae998e69329480205f (https://www.full30.com/video/b71ac83f886c64ae998e69329480205f)  He is supposed to do some more videos but have not seen any yet.

And there is currently one at gunsamerica that will release a video and write up.

The instance you mention of the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged, notice in the article that they tried several times to get it to happen again and could not.  Do not know what the issue was but when I got the rifle back I tried several time and nothing.  Also did the shooter have his hand on the trigger when he dropped the release???  And actually pulled the great smooth trigger?  I do not know.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 17, 2017, 07:20:09 PM
A Bullpup That Does Not Suck? The K&M Arms M17S .308- Full Report (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bullpup-not-suck-km-arms-m17s-308-full-review/ (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/bullpup-not-suck-km-arms-m17s-308-full-review/))


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 17, 2017, 08:13:32 PM
Well if that does not make you want to buy one, I don't know what else to do.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SkirmishAblated on February 17, 2017, 08:36:48 PM
Strong review! Answers virtually all of the questions I had. Thanks for posting!


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: issues on February 18, 2017, 11:39:31 AM
Very cool review and at the same time, very sad for us lefties.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 03:25:29 AM
I've only seen a handful of reviews on the M17S, and no more than two for the 308 version. There's been nothing that has gone into detail about accuracy or reliability, and the following review noted that the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged!

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/02/gun-test-km-arms-m17s-carbine/ (http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/02/gun-test-km-arms-m17s-carbine/)
. . .

From the Daily Caller review, Gun Test: K&M Arms M17S Carbine ---
(http://s13.postimg.org/57r73vp87/Daily_Caller.jpg)

The question that came to mind, Does the K&M Arms M17S Firing Pin have a retaining spring?

The results of my research:

No Firing Pin Spring shown in the exploded diagram;
Under Part Number and description, "Firing Pin Spring (deleted 1998)."

(http://www.kmaerospace.com/M17s%20Mods%20-%20OEM%20Replacement%20Parts.shtml (http://www.kmaerospace.com/M17s%20Mods%20-%20OEM%20Replacement%20Parts.shtml))

(http://www.kmaerospace.com/M17s%20Mods%20-%20Other%20Items.shtml (http://www.kmaerospace.com/M17s%20Mods%20-%20Other%20Items.shtml))

Perhaps, srfnken can clarify.



Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 09:17:04 AM
Clearly you do not know what you are talking about as my platform does indeed have a firing pin spring and it is shown in my schematic.  This section is for the K&M ARMS platform not the bushmaster platform.  And the above quote from the NRA magazine has already been explained above.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 03:02:39 PM
. . .  And the above quote from the NRA magazine has already been explained above.

Thank you for clarifying the firing pin spring question. Now. what quote from the NRA magazine and what explanation are you referring to in this Thread?


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
The screen shot you posted is from NRA shooting illustrated.  It is reposted by the dailycaller.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SkirmishAblated on February 22, 2017, 03:15:36 PM
What's with the comments section in that article? The review was very solid, but suddenly everyone is coming up with reasons to dislike it? Tough crowd!


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 03:17:42 PM
Bullpup  haters.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SkirmishAblated on February 22, 2017, 03:24:44 PM
I guess so! Btw Ken, what ammo have you found to work really well I. Your 308? I'm looking into stocking up now...I know the article mentioned the Sig 168 grain, but I'm going for a little more variety.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 03:28:28 PM
The screen shot you posted is from NRA shooting illustrated.  It is reposted by the dailycaller.

Now, what quote from the NRA magazine and which explanation are you referring to in this thread?


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 03:28:44 PM
Sorry, I do not have a suggestion for you.  You will have to see what works best in your rifle.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 04:44:09 PM
. . .  And the above quote from the NRA magazine has already been explained above.

Thank you for clarifying the firing pin spring question. Now. what quote from the NRA magazine and what explanation are you referring to in this Thread?


To reiterate: Now, what quote from the NRA magazine and what explanation are you referring to in the Thread?


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 04:54:22 PM
. . .  And the above quote from the NRA magazine has already been explained above.

Thank you for clarifying the firing pin spring question. Now. what quote from the NRA magazine and what explanation are you referring to in this Thread?


To reiterate: Now, what quote from the NRA magazine and what explanation are you referring to in the Thread?


You posted this, screen shot from above and I had already answered it in the second post of this thread.  So not quite sure why you were bringing it back up again.  As stated earlier this is a screen shot you took from the NRA article which was re posted by the daily caller.



Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 05:06:43 PM
. . .  And the above quote from the NRA magazine has already been explained above.

Perhaps, you would be good enough to quote the explanation you are referring to.



Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 05:41:35 PM
. . . You posted this, screen shot from above and I had already answered it in the second post of this thread. . .

. . . The instance you mention of the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged, notice in the article that they tried several times to get it to happen again and could not.  Do not know what the issue was but when I got the rifle back I tried several time and nothing.  Also did the shooter have his hand on the trigger when he dropped the release???  And actually pulled the great smooth trigger?  I do not know.

Personally, I see this response as a diversion tactic to avoid the serious issue of a slam-fire: the unintentional firing of a firearm, in this case, without serious consequences.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 05:49:56 PM
. . . You posted this, screen shot from above and I had already answered it in the second post of this thread. . .

. . . The instance you mention of the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged, notice in the article that they tried several times to get it to happen again and could not.  Do not know what the issue was but when I got the rifle back I tried several time and nothing.  Also did the shooter have his hand on the trigger when he dropped the release???  And actually pulled the great smooth trigger?  I do not know.

Personally, I see this response as a diversion tactic to avoid the serious issue of a slam-fire: the unintentional firing of a firearm, in this case, without serious consequences.

REALLY????????  ARE YOU TOO LAZY TO SCROLL TO THE SECOND POST IN THIS THREAD AND READ MY RESPONSE?  I know you have been called out by others on this site in other threads for your repost and quoting yourself.  No need to come at me like this.  I don't need to quote myself if it is already written.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 06:03:41 PM
Here's "THE SECOND POST IN THIS THREAD". And, I quoted your response to the portion of the article referring to the unintentional firing of the K&M Arms M17S. Obviously,  you don't have an explanation as to why the K&M Arms M17S fired unintentionally. And, unfortunately, your hissy fit isn't getting the job done. We deserve better.

Currently hank strange has one. https://www.full30.com/video/b71ac83f886c64ae998e69329480205f (https://www.full30.com/video/b71ac83f886c64ae998e69329480205f)  He is supposed to do some more videos but have not seen any yet.

And there is currently one at gunsamerica that will release a video and write up.

The instance you mention of the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged, notice in the article that they tried several times to get it to happen again and could not.  Do not know what the issue was but when I got the rifle back I tried several time and nothing.  Also did the shooter have his hand on the trigger when he dropped the release???  And actually pulled the great smooth trigger?  I do not know.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: jwaruszyla on February 22, 2017, 06:18:03 PM
Without being there how can Ken know what happened? Like he said for all we know the shooter could have had his finger on the trigger, lots of variables thst may have happened. He did try to duplicate it with no luck. Personally as soon as my tax refund comes in I plan on ordering one of his 308 models, after much research it seems like his rifle is built to last


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: srfnken on February 22, 2017, 06:35:17 PM
If the shooter tried several times to duplicate the alleged issue and the manufacture tried several times to duplicate the alleged issue and it never happened again, did it really happen with just releasing the carrier from the bolt catch?  Or was there something the shooter did like having their finger on the trigger when releasing the bolt catch.  I can tell you that if you do this on any auto loading rifle that has a match grade trigger and the force of the carrier going into chamber, the force of said bolt carrier with the mass that mine has will move the rifle in the forward direction.  Causing the shooter to pull the trigger.  Is this what happened?  I do not know I was not there and it could not be duplicated by both the shooter and the manufacturer.  What else do you want me to do?
I am not trying to skirt the issue as you are suggesting, these are the facts.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 22, 2017, 07:04:18 PM
Thank you.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on February 22, 2017, 08:24:46 PM
I have approximatley 700 rounds thru my M17s 308, all of them from a 10 round magazine. I shoot 5 shot groups then reload the magazine with another 5 rounds.
So at a bare minimum I have released the bolt to chamber a cartridge 140 times.
The rifle has not fired once from dropping the bolt. That doesn't even account for the times I have dry fired it or let friends check out the awesome trigger.
I'm calling bulls*** on the guy saying it fired just by dropping the bolt.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on February 22, 2017, 08:44:34 PM
. . . You posted this, screen shot from above and I had already answered it in the second post of this thread. . .

. . . The instance you mention of the rifle fired unexpectedly when the bolt release was engaged, notice in the article that they tried several times to get it to happen again and could not.  Do not know what the issue was but when I got the rifle back I tried several time and nothing.  Also did the shooter have his hand on the trigger when he dropped the release???  And actually pulled the great smooth trigger?  I do not know.

Personally, I see this response as a diversion tactic to avoid the serious issue of a slam-fire: the unintentional firing of a firearm, in this case, without serious consequences.


Accusing Ken of using a diversion tactic are strong words mister.
You might want to think about that.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 23, 2017, 05:16:13 PM
I today received a response to my query to the author of the article in question, "RE: The unintentional firing of the K&M Arms M17S used in your Report. Is it possible that the operator of the firearm, at the time of the incident, may have had his/her finger on/near the trigger, at the time?

(https://s10.postimg.org/xg0nr9si1/Grazio.jpg)


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on March 07, 2017, 08:19:12 AM
Out of the hundreds of KM Arms  M17s rifles, both 5.56 and .308 this is the
only instance that I have heard of where there was an unintentional discharge.
If there is a design flaw that causes the rifle to fire without the trigger being pulled
I fairly sure that we would have heard about it by now. My money is on the operator
had his finger on the trigger when he released the bolt.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 07, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Out of the hundreds of KM Arms  M17s rifles, both 5.56 and .308 this is the
only instance that I have heard of where there was an unintentional discharge.
If there is a design flaw that causes the rifle to fire without the trigger being pulled
I fairly sure that we would have heard about it by now. My money is on the operator
had his finger on the trigger when he released the bolt.

Dogslayer

I thought we had put this delicate issue to rest, back on February 23. So be it.

(http://cnqzu.com/library/Anarchy%20Folder/Gunsmithing/ArmaLite_Technotes/Prevention%20of%20Slamfires%20-%20tnote10.htm (http://cnqzu.com/library/Anarchy%20Folder/Gunsmithing/ArmaLite_Technotes/Prevention%20of%20Slamfires%20-%20tnote10.htm))

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire))

(http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/132177-hk-416-family-safest-rifle-you-can-buy.html (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/132177-hk-416-family-safest-rifle-you-can-buy.html))

(http://acrforum.com/forum/acr-technical-discussion/6067-firing-pin-bounce-danger-slam-fire.html#post87285 (http://acrforum.com/forum/acr-technical-discussion/6067-firing-pin-bounce-danger-slam-fire.html#post87285))

(http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/daniel-zimmerman/sig-sauer-issues-recall-mcx-rifles/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/daniel-zimmerman/sig-sauer-issues-recall-mcx-rifles/))

(http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/440985_Slam_fire_theory.html#i4029322 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/440985_Slam_fire_theory.html#i4029322))

And, re my email-query to Shooting Illustrated Associate Editor, Jay Grazio: In addition to my primary question, "Is it possible that the operator of the firearm, at the time of incident, may have had his/her finger on/near the trigger, at the time?", I also asked, "Did you take note of the manufacturer stamped on the cartridge in question?" and "Did the primer indent appear to be normal depth, or minimal?"

Mr. Grazio earned my respect from his prompt, detailed email-response. A professional gun writer, he could have dismissed my primary question with, "I know enough not to have my finger on/near the trigger, unless I intend to fire a gun." Rather, in that there was not video confirming such, he allowed for the possibility.

Moreover, despite his initial suggestion that the incident may have been the result of a "soft primer," in that he was unable to recover the fired case in question for inspection, the key evidence of a slam fire was lost.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on March 07, 2017, 09:59:15 PM
Copy and paste copy and paste quote quote quote link link link. Have you ever had
an original thought in your life? My hypothesis is solid, if there was a problem with
this rifle we would have heard about it by now. Out of the 29 posts in this thread,
10 of them are yours. I didn't see where you had "put it to bed"!
I didn't know that you had the authority to decide when no other posts can be made
by other members of this forum.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: bpguy on March 07, 2017, 09:59:40 PM
Sassy, That is a pretty harsh response to someone that was just expressing there opinion and use of this rifle.  It seems that you have come to the conclusion that it was indeed a slam fire from all your quoted links.  Which you were not there and even the writer stated that they tried several times to re create issue.  And that they could not rule out the possibility that their finger was indeed on the trigger.  You are just speculating on what you think may have happened.  Notice that the writer never came to a conclusion or even speculated on what caused the issue.  You on the other hand from what I have seen don't own one of these rifles, yet is trying to stir the pot for an issue that is non existent from what I can see.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 08, 2017, 12:10:28 AM
Here's the facts:

1, On February 16, 2017, the OP expressed concern over a point in the M17S review he'd read, "and the following review noted that the rifle fired, unexpectedly, when the bolt release was engaged!" He then gave the link to the Shooting Illustrated review;

2, The author of the review stated, therein, "It is quite possible that this was the result of a soft primer, . . ." alluding to a slam fire, though rare, results when a non-spec (soft) primer is indented, sufficiently, by debris, stuck/free-floating firing pin, ignites the propellant in the cartridge and discharges the weapon --- unintentionally;

3, On February 17, 2017, I posted A Bullpup That Does Not Suck? The K&M Arms M17S .308 - Full Report, a mostly complementary Report;

4, On February 22, 2017, I investigated the Shooting Illustrated incident of the unintentional firing of the K&M Arms M17S .308;

5, On February 23, 2017, I received a courteous reply from the author of the Shooting Illustrated article, which provided no hard evidence of the actual cause of the unintentional firing incident, "I was unable to recover the fired case for inspection, as I was on a public range, and there were many cases on the floor." I shared the author's reply with our Bullpup Forum. As the author's initial suspicion that a soft primer was the culprit could not be proven, as the fired case in question could not be found. I dropped the matter, at that time;

6, Today, Bullpup Forum Dogslayer elected to revive the issue suggesting that the author of the Shooting Illustrated article, ". . . had his finger on the trigger, when he released the bolt, . . . --- with no proof that such was the case;

7, I responded, appropriately. This is a technical gun forum, after all, where Members and Visitors check-in to get the facts.




Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 08, 2017, 01:10:25 AM
Sassy, That is a pretty harsh response to someone that was just expressing there opinion and use of this rifle.  It seems that you have come to the conclusion that it was indeed a slam fire from all your quoted links.  Which you were not there and even the writer stated that they tried several times to re create issue.  And that they could not rule out the possibility that their finger was indeed on the trigger.  You are just speculating on what you think may have happened.  Notice that the writer never came to a conclusion or even speculated on what caused the issue.  You on the other hand from what I have seen don't own one of these rifles, yet is trying to stir the pot for an issue that is non existent from what I can see.

bpguy,

Welcome to our Bullpup Forum!

Take the time to review the Thread, K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower, from my first Post, back in September, 2013 ---
(http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.msg38979#msg38979 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.msg38979#msg38979))

To my most recent Post, February, 2017 ---
(http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.msg114783#msg114783 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.msg114783#msg114783))

I think you'll find that I support the latest iteration of the M17S Bullpup (I owned one, back in the 1990's).
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

ETA:

My Bushmaster M17S, back in the 1990's, before I added a snap-on extension to the butt of the rifle (I'm right-handed, left-eye dominant and shoot from the left shoulder) ---
(https://s9.postimg.org/ep0t3cby7/DSCN0678.jpg)

Armtech Ltd. C60R at Arms Fair '87, Brisbane, Australia ---
(https://s18.postimg.org/cb0v19bbt/DSCN0672.jpg)

Back of photo from Armtech Ltd. ---
(https://s9.postimg.org/whb0mlj67/DSCN0680.jpg)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_M17S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_M17S))

And, if I decide to purchase the latest iteration of the M17S Bullpup, I have some ideas about accurizing it --- (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=6599.msg64911#msg64911 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=6599.msg64911#msg64911)) (See Reply #15 thru Reply #19).



Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on March 08, 2017, 09:07:21 AM
Here's the facts:

1, On February 16, 2017, the OP expressed concern over a point in the M17S review he'd read, "and the following review noted that the rifle fired, unexpectedly, when the bolt release was engaged!" He then gave the link to the Shooting Illustrated review;

2, The author of the review stated, therein, "It is quite possible that this was the result of a soft primer, . . ." alluding to a slam fire, though rare, results when a non-spec (soft) primer is indented, sufficiently, by debris, stuck/free-floating firing pin, ignites the propellant in the cartridge and discharges the weapon --- unintentionally;

3, On February 17, 2017, I posted A Bullpup That Does Not Suck? The K&M Arms M17S .308 - Full Report, a mostly complementary Report;

4, On February 22, 2017, I investigated the Shooting Illustrated incident of the unintentional firing of the K&M Arms M17S .308;

5, On February 23, 2017, I received a courteous reply from the author of the Shooting Illustrated article, which provided no hard evidence of the actual cause of the unintentional firing incident, "I was unable to recover the fired case for inspection, as I was on a public range, and there were many cases on the floor." I shared the author's reply with our Bullpup Forum. As the author's initial suspicion that a soft primer was the culprit could not be proven, as the fired case in question could not be found. I dropped the matter, at that time;

6, Today, Bullpup Forum Dogslayer elected to revive the issue suggesting that the author of the Shooting Illustrated article, ". . . had his finger on the trigger, when he released the bolt, . . . --- with no proof that such was the case;

7, I responded, appropriately. This is a technical gun forum, after all, where Members and Visitors check-in to get the facts.




Do not tell lies about me asshole! Nowhere in my post did I say that the reviewer
had his finger on the trigger.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: justwantamdr on March 08, 2017, 03:17:51 PM
Out of the hundreds of KM Arms  M17s rifles, both 5.56 and .308 this is the
only instance that I have heard of where there was an unintentional discharge.
If there is a design flaw that causes the rifle to fire without the trigger being pulled
I fairly sure that we would have heard about it by now. My money is on the operator
had his finger on the trigger when he released the bolt.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Dogslayer on March 08, 2017, 05:14:37 PM
Sassy, I apologize. I didn't remember posting that.
Dogslayer


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 08, 2017, 05:38:51 PM
Dogslayer,

Thank you for your apology. Know that we're all brothers, here. And, we're passionate about what we do to advance our Bullpup World. Let's get back to the task at hand: Making your K&M M17S .308 shoot MOA --- or better.


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Steelviper on March 08, 2017, 11:47:49 PM
Wow gtgis is why I love this forum, everyone is courteous and when mistakes are made- apologizes soon follow with people actually graciously accepting said apology.

BRAVO to two fine gentlemen, I tip my hat! :cheerleader


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 10, 2017, 07:12:40 PM
Very cool review and at the same time, very sad for us lefties.

issues,

I share your concerns. Perhaps, there hasn't been sufficient demand from those of us who shoot a long gun from the left shoulder ---

(https://s9.postimg.org/kuozbqskv/lefty.jpg)


Title: Re: M17S Reviews
Post by: Hesher420 on April 23, 2017, 08:39:04 PM
I recently disassembled my M17s308 to send it out for a new paint job. I'm here to offer my review on the M17s manual. It made disassembly of the rifle a very straight forward task. I did have 1 question, and called Ken just to verify the manual. He called me back and made sure I was clear on everything.

I have built a few ar's, but the M17s is a slightly different animal. The superb manual with explosion drawings detailing every individual set screw and spring gave me the confidence to tackle the job and completely strip the upper and lower receivers.