BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => Desert Tech MDR => Topic started by: Frostburg on January 10, 2017, 04:38:04 AM



Title: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 10, 2017, 04:38:04 AM
I am curious, as I am primarily interested in the MDR as a 5.56 fighting rifle, and if the 5.56 version will be
all that it's cracked up to be. I have come to understand recently that .308 will be the primary caliber for the platform, and 5.56 is more of a "side-kick" to it. I'm not terribly interested in a .308 MDR, but instead 5.56. I get that DT has spent considerable time with the .308 version and that version is their pride and joy.  While they are showing off .308 groups, the 5.56 version is still being developed. 

I mean, how will the 5.56 version stack up against the .308 version? Is it even worth it to get the MDR if
you are only interested in 5.56?  I mean, there are other options for 5.56 such as the Tavor, etc, but none of whom offer the revolutionary design and features of the MDR.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Slateman on January 10, 2017, 07:48:16 AM
At this point, we have frickin idea. And we won't for the better part of a year.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Menace667 on January 10, 2017, 08:46:44 AM
The rifle in and of itself is a .308 rifle and had to be that way to accommodate the larger round. It couldn't have been the other way around or the difficulties of making it work would have been far harder. I also don't see them preferring one over the other at all. If anything the more calibers the more money they can make. People are already clamoring for 6.5 calibers and 300bo, which equates to $$$$$$.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: reason on January 10, 2017, 12:50:10 PM
If the price hadn't gone up I would have cancelled my preorder for the 556 and just waited till it came out and had reviews due to the newest pushback and info about the tooling not being finished. All this time I never considered either caliber as a primary priority wise and thought it was being developed as a system.  The ACR debacle makes me hesitant to buy a rifle motivated mostly on the multi cal metric because of seeing how stupid business practices can destroy a magnificent rifles future. My hope is that DT record of actually having produced multi cal systems before bestows some confidence above other companies. 


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 10, 2017, 12:50:21 PM
The rifle in and of itself is a .308 rifle and had to be that way to accommodate the larger round. It couldn't have been the other way around or the difficulties of making it work would have been far harder. I also don't see them preferring one over the other at all. If anything the more calibers the more money they can make. People are already clamoring for 6.5 calibers and 300bo, which equates to $$$$$$.

But making money on a product doesn't necessarily imply that that product will be top quality. People make tons of money by putting out sub-standard products. I'm not in any way suggesting that the 5.56 MDR will be sub-standard, just noting the fallacy that turning a profit on a product necessitates that the product is held to a high standard.

All I'm worried about is that the MDR overall as a platform will be idealized for the .308 caliber, and that
the 5.56 version will not have as much attention given, or that the 5.56 version will be "adapted" to the .308 platform. This would imply that theoretically the MDR as a native 5.56 platform might be constructed slightly differently and perhaps the tuning of the parts and dimensions would be more specific to the 5.56 caliber.  Idk if that made any sense.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: reason on January 10, 2017, 12:51:41 PM
Delete double post


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: reason on January 10, 2017, 12:56:22 PM
Frost, I would consider DT integration of multi cal conversions into a single system in the bolt rifles a reason to hope they will do a similar job on the MDR. Think of the retention of zero between cal changes on the SRS. That is a serious positive.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 10, 2017, 01:24:09 PM
Frost, I would consider DT integration of multi cal conversions into a single system in the bolt rifles a reason to hope they will do a similar job on the MDR. Think of the retention of zero between cal changes on the SRS. That is a serious positive.

That last portion does offer some hope, but the mechanism for a bolt action rifle is slighly less violent.

Here is one specific concern: The receiver and magazine-well are designed for the larger .308 cartridge.
How will the seams for the parts to accommodate the 5.56 conversion be handled? Will the seams be weak points for the rifle? If the magazine or magazine well area takes a strong blow, could it jar the magazine well adapter loose? Also let's think more specifically about the internal dimensions of the receiver. It would be large enough to accommodate the .308 cartridge.  But now you're going to switch it out to 5.56. In my mind, that means that there will be excess space internally as the 5.56 bolt/carrier stuff will be smaller. That would seem like more bulk than what is necessary for the 5.56 system, and possibly more weight than what would normally be called for it.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: EWTHeckman on January 10, 2017, 01:45:59 PM
Here is one specific concern: The receiver and magazine-well are designed for the larger .308 cartridge.
How will the seams for the parts to accommodate the 5.56 conversion be handled? Will the seams be weak points for the rifle? If the magazine or magazine well area takes a strong blow, could it jar the magazine well adapter loose? Also let's think more specifically about the internal dimensions of the receiver. It would be large enough to accommodate the .308 cartridge.  But now you're going to switch it out to 5.56. In my mind, that means that there will be excess space internally as the 5.56 bolt/carrier stuff will be smaller. That would seem like more bulk than what is necessary for the 5.56 system, and possibly more weight than what would normally be called for it.

It seems to me that using a frame designed for a heavier caliber will always be heavier than a frame designed only for lighter calibers. That's just a given of physics. The real question is "how much heavier?" I could be wrong, but it seems that the weight of the MDR is pretty close to the average AR-15. The shorter length of a bullpup may have something to do with that.

It seems that the durability of the magazine well adapter is probably affected by three factors: the quality of the adapter material, the quality of the adapter connection to the receiver, and support from the receiver's magazine well walls.

The latter factor is probably the most important of the three. Since the magazine well adapter is fully enclosed by the .308 mag well, that strength would then offer significant support to the adapter. Impacts from the outside would not even reach the adapter. Impacts from the inside would be pressing the adapter into the stronger outer walls, so while you might get cracks (hard to imagine non-kaboom internal impacts being that strong), there's no place for them to go. And if it's an internal impact caused by a kaboom, the rifle should not be fired again anyway.

The next most important factor is probably the connection. If it's a weak and/or poorly designed connection, it could fall out of the gun due to wear or impacts. Given that the multi-caliber capability and reliability of the MDR is something DesertTech is making a big deal of, we should be able to trust DT to get this part right.

Finally, the material used might make a difference. If it gets brittle or otherwise breaks easily, that's a problem. Given that the MDR is already made of solid materials, and that magazine well adapters have been in use for years (most common: 9mm adapters in AR-15's) I don't expect this be a problem, even if they have to use steel—which seems like major overkill.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on January 10, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Desert Tech MDR magazine well adapter---
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ljrm7c.jpg)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Chief Master on January 10, 2017, 02:12:43 PM
Where did you get that pic?


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on January 10, 2017, 02:43:18 PM
Chief Master, Google "images for: MDR photos by SMGLee." (https://www.google.com/?guns_rd=ssl#q=images+for+MDR+photos+by+SMGLee (https://www.google.com/?guns_rd=ssl#q=images+for+MDR+photos+by+SMGLee)). Then, scroll down the Page.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: epicrad on January 10, 2017, 03:12:24 PM
If and/or when the 5.56 version comes out I'm sure it will be, at least, on par with however the .308 version ends up being. As others have said, scaling down from .308 to 5.56 is the easy way to go. You've got a barrel which would probably contain the gas system all calibrated to 5.56 and then a bolt.  Maybe you might have to do a recoil spring/system swap. The magwell adapter would require the most thought, but even modern day Colt managed to get it right with the 901 series of rifles.

The only real disadvantage I can see, from initially designing the rifle for .308, would be that it would be heavier than if it was exclusively designed around 5.56.

My main concern is, how long until we actually see the 5.56 version? DT has really struggled up to this point and is still at least two months or so away from delivering the rifle in it's base configuration.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: coldboremiracle on January 10, 2017, 03:14:24 PM
Desert Tech MDR magazine well adapter---
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ljrm7c.jpg)

That is an old pic of a prototype three or more gen's back. It shares little with the current gen, other than similar bolt catch/release placement, and the magazine itself.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: EWTHeckman on January 10, 2017, 03:28:27 PM
That is an old pic of a prototype three or more gen's back. It shares little with the current gen, other than similar bolt catch/release placement, and the magazine itself.

That explains why it looks like it was 3D printed.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: hillbillyjim on January 10, 2017, 07:28:53 PM
If you are getting scar 16/17 or mr556/762 quality no it isn't.  If it's no better then a tavor then we getting raped with no lube


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 10, 2017, 09:39:29 PM
My answer to the original question is a resounding YES!

We are talking about a rifle that is:

1. approx 7 lb (before you get the weight distribution advantages of the bullpup configuration)

2. 16" barrel (no NFA issues, almost full velocity potential from the cartridge)

3.  26" overall (better than an SBR AR but no NFA issues)

4. shoots sub-moa with factory ammo

5. fully ambidextrous (not just "good enough for shooting weak side on occasion")

6. fully modular (swap barrel lengths, calibers, hand guards, etc.)

7. doesn't require any trigger upgrade out of the box

Etc.

Show me ANY other rifle design that offers that, or even most of that, for less than $2,500?

Yeah, I'd say it's "worth it", objectively speaking.  Of course, whether it's "worth it" to a certain buyer personally is a completely different question!  :)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Ditcher on January 10, 2017, 11:28:39 PM
I am curious, as I am primarily interested in the MDR as a 5.56 fighting rifle, and if the 5.56 version will be
all that it's cracked up to be. I have come to understand recently that .308 will be the primary caliber for the platform, and 5.56 is more of a "side-kick" to it. I'm not terribly interested in a .308 MDR, but instead 5.56. I get that DT has spent considerable time with the .308 version and that version is their pride and joy.  While they are showing off .308 groups, the 5.56 version is still being developed. 

I mean, how will the 5.56 version stack up against the .308 version? Is it even worth it to get the MDR if
you are only interested in 5.56?  I mean, there are other options for 5.56 such as the Tavor, etc, but none of whom offer the revolutionary design and features of the MDR.

Hard to say if it be worth it or not for you.  Depends what you're looking for I guess.
Tavor isn't really that much more heavy then the MDR. We are talking about .8lbs differences.
Plus most the weight sits on the shoulder so its not bad.  I hear they improved the trigger on the newer tavors. (so they say) I seen the 18" tavor sell for little over 1400 which isn't a bad deal.  So it depends what you're looking for and what you want out of it. :)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Graccus on January 11, 2017, 02:17:29 AM
I am curious, as I am primarily interested in the MDR as a 5.56 fighting rifle, and if the 5.56 version will be
all that it's cracked up to be. I have come to understand recently that .308 will be the primary caliber for the platform, and 5.56 is more of a "side-kick" to it. I'm not terribly interested in a .308 MDR, but instead 5.56. I get that DT has spent considerable time with the .308 version and that version is their pride and joy.  While they are showing off .308 groups, the 5.56 version is still being developed. 

I mean, how will the 5.56 version stack up against the .308 version? Is it even worth it to get the MDR if
you are only interested in 5.56?  I mean, there are other options for 5.56 such as the Tavor, etc, but none of whom offer the revolutionary design and features of the MDR.

Frostburg, if you want a bullpup designed specifically for the .556, then you may want to seriously consider a Lithgow F90 Atrax. They'll be $500+ less than the MDR, and if all continues to go as planned, you'll be able to get your hands on the civilian version before the .556 MDR is available. Since i absolutely hate the Tavor, I won't encourage you in that direction.

I'm pretty sure the .556 MDR is going to be one heck of a rifle, but I can see how someone wanting a rifle specifically designed for the .556 might be discouraged by the MDR platform. In answer to your question, I do believe the MDR will be worth it, even in .556.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 12, 2017, 01:17:36 AM
Desert Tech MDR magazine well adapter---
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ljrm7c.jpg)

That is an old pic of a prototype three or more gen's back. It shares little with the current gen, other than similar bolt catch/release placement, and the magazine itself.

Coldboremiracle, I think that out of anyone here, you would be best to answer this question.
As someone who is interested in 5.56, how does the MDR stack up? Is the 5.56 merely the 'Robin' to .308's 'Batman?' Is it just an 'accessory' to a primarily .308 rifle? I want the 5.56 version to be the ideal 5.56 rifle that the .308 version is clearly expected to be.

I would personally have preferred that 5.56 would have been the "native" caliber for the platform, not the .308, but hey, that's just me.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: HBeretta on January 12, 2017, 01:45:47 AM
I am curious, as I am primarily interested in the MDR as a 5.56 fighting rifle, and if the 5.56 version will be
all that it's cracked up to be. I have come to understand recently that .308 will be the primary caliber for the platform, and 5.56 is more of a "side-kick" to it. I'm not terribly interested in a .308 MDR, but instead 5.56. I get that DT has spent considerable time with the .308 version and that version is their pride and joy.  While they are showing off .308 groups, the 5.56 version is still being developed. 

I mean, how will the 5.56 version stack up against the .308 version? Is it even worth it to get the MDR if
you are only interested in 5.56?  I mean, there are other options for 5.56 such as the Tavor, etc, but none of whom offer the revolutionary design and features of the MDR.

Frostburg, if you want a bullpup designed specifically for the .556, then you may want to seriously consider a Lithgow F90 Atrax. They'll be $500+ less than the MDR, and if all continues to go as planned, you'll be able to get your hands on the civilian version before the .556 MDR is available. Since i absolutely hate the Tavor, I won't encourage you in that direction.

I'm pretty sure the .556 MDR is going to be one heck of a rifle, but I can see how someone wanting a rifle specifically designed for the .556 might be discouraged by the MDR platform. In answer to your question, I do believe the MDR will be worth it, even in .556.

i'm very excited for that f90 as well...appears to be pretty accurate too.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Ascinder on January 12, 2017, 05:33:34 AM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: slowcorrado on January 12, 2017, 10:05:27 AM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

Cartridge availability.  Also sadly, I can afford to shoot 5.56 more often than either other caliber......  This may not be an issue for some.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Slateman on January 12, 2017, 12:50:16 PM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

Cartridge availability.  Also sadly, I can afford to shoot 5.56 more often than either other caliber......  This may not be an issue for some.
This and, frankly, .300 BLK has limited range particularly when you're looking for a more precision-oriented round.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 12, 2017, 01:01:02 PM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

5.56 hits the sweet spot for many applications.  Ammo is affordable and available everywhere in great quantity, recoil is light, compatible weapon platforms are abundant and can be very cheap (for those who need that), ammo is lightweight, common magazine capacity is high, those magazines are cheap, etc. all while the terminal effect on the target at "normal" ranges (e.g. civilian applications and not military) is excellent with the right bullets.

Sure, if you hit a human target at 600 yards with 855, you may do little other than poke a .22 inch hole through it.  If you are in a military engagement that may be much less than satisfactory!  But for any typical civilian engagement (real world self defense) the range is probably going to be less than 100 yards, and out to maybe 200 yards even out of a short barrel with quality ammo the effect on target is going to be substantial and accomplish the desired effect, assuming the marksmanship is adequate.  So I'm quite confident that 5.56 will do anything I need a rifle to do as a civilian.

That being said, I love the idea of getting so much more without sacrificing much with a .308 MDR!  Many people think .308 is just for long distance and will over-penetrate at close ranges, but there are cartridges available that won't even penetrate as far in gel as 9mm yet would deliver devastating energy on a human target at close range.  If you are going to do a lot of training with the MDR, you can easily calculate how many rounds you have to shoot before a 5.56 conversion pays for itself in ammo savings.  But even if you don't go that route, spending a few hundred dollars on ammo for training is not that big a deal compared to what you are gaining!

.300 Blackout is certainly becoming more popular as more ammo choices become available, but for me it gives the most advantages over 5.56 in short barrels.  I wouldn't want an AR SBR in anything other than .300 Blackout.  And in the case of the MDR-C, I can't imagine why anybody would want to choose 5.56 over .300 Blk--I can't imagine a better PDW design!

Otherwise, if you're comparing .300 Blk to 5.56 with a 16" barrel for both the .300 does probably offer ballistic advantages under 300 yards?) but it may not be enough to overcome the higher ammo prices, less availability (getting better), and lower platform distribution for some people.  Like the previous post said, once you go beyond 300 yards it doesn't do as well as 5.56 for precision shooting but that's more of a target shooting application than a tactical application for civilians, in my opinion.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: LockeCTH on January 12, 2017, 03:47:49 PM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

Personally, this is pretty similar to my line of thought. (Not that I would begrudge anyone their excitement over just about any gun in just about any caliber - the more the merrier.)

The thought of the range and power of a .308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor) in a short, light, accurate package, like the MDR is shaping up to be, is a very happy thought indeed. IMO there are already plenty of solid available options for 5.56 bullpups (but the more the merrier!) But there's not much out there currently for the larger calibers.

With that said, I have no personal experience with 6.5 Creedmoor or with bullpups (...yet *fingers crossed*) so a happy thought may be all that it is. But it's one I intend to investigate fully, while thoroughly enjoy said investigation every step of the way.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 12, 2017, 04:00:05 PM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

Personally, this is pretty similar to my line of thought. (Not that I would begrudge anyone their excitement over just about any gun in just about any caliber - the more the merrier.)

The thought of the range and power of a .308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor) in a short, light, accurate package, like the MDR is shaping up to be, is a very happy thought indeed. IMO there are already plenty of solid available options for 5.56 bullpups (but the more the merrier!) But there's not much out there currently for the larger calibers.

With that said, I have no personal experience with 6.5 Creedmoor or with bullpups (...yet *fingers crossed*) so a happy thought may be all that it is. But it's one I intend to investigate fully, while thoroughly enjoy said investigation every step of the way.

Personally, if I am to get an MDR (which despite my irritation regarding marketing and rice increases and such, I might of the reviews make it seem worthwhile), I intend fully to get special snowflake caliber barrels for it (idk what the aftermarket will look like though). .338 federal, 6.5×47 Lapua, and .277 wolverine being my current favorites.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: spector762 on January 12, 2017, 05:07:56 PM
i dont know if anyone noticed  the trigger reset looks decently short for a bullpup getting very excited folks


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: INV136 on January 12, 2017, 05:18:09 PM
I have 0 interest in a 5.56 caliber MDR. I have a Steyr Aug that covers the 5.56 bullpup role exceptionally well. The only interest I have in the MDR is in .308 caliber. I have looked at the K&M 17 .308 and I prefer the ergonomics of the MDR. I also had a KelTec RFB .308 and it was not satisfactory because of some issues with the rifle and issues I had with various magazines. Since Steyr doesn't make a .308 Aug, the MDR looks to me to be the next best thing. I also have 0 interest in caliber change kits for the MDR.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 12, 2017, 05:51:28 PM
I may be the only one here, but I fail to see the appeal of .556 when you have 300BLK and .308. You have better(IMHO) capability with those two rounds, and they effectively edge out .556 in this case. What's the actual advantage of .556 here? Seems like a leftover compromise to me.

Personally, this is pretty similar to my line of thought. (Not that I would begrudge anyone their excitement over just about any gun in just about any caliber - the more the merrier.)

The thought of the range and power of a .308 (or 6.5 Creedmoor) in a short, light, accurate package, like the MDR is shaping up to be, is a very happy thought indeed. IMO there are already plenty of solid available options for 5.56 bullpups (but the more the merrier!) But there's not much out there currently for the larger calibers.

With that said, I have no personal experience with 6.5 Creedmoor or with bullpups (...yet *fingers crossed*) so a happy thought may be all that it is. But it's one I intend to investigate fully, while thoroughly enjoy said investigation every step of the way.

See, from my perspective, before the MDR (and also somewhat the RDB), all previous bullpup iterations have had some notable drawbacks as a "5.56 fighting rifle." None of which could really top the M16/M4 at their role. I want a good fighting rifle that covers the role of an infantry M16 or M4 in 5.56, but in a bullpup format.  I have tried and shot most of the other common military 5.56 bullpup rifles, and they all fall short in some way or another.

I don't like the location of the magazine release on the AUG. It makes speed reloads much slower, nor do I like its forward grip. I dislike the weight and large groups I get with the Tavor. The RDB nearly has it all, but its quality is suspect. The MDR though has to potential to be the 5.56 standard service rifle that the M16 and M4 should have been.

I am not really into "fad" calibers rifles. The 5.56 has gotten the job done in war-zones for decades, and I see no reason to jump onto every hot new cartridge that comes out. Admittedly, I don't know much about most of these new, trendier cartridges, and everyone seems to love them. I know people have issues with the 5.56 cartridge, but it's been the cartridge used successfully by professional infantrymen for a long time now.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 12, 2017, 09:37:19 PM
I know people have issues with the 5.56 cartridge, but it's been the cartridge used successfully by professional infantrymen for a long time now.

So was .30-06

And while I'm at it, the M4 is a fine 5.56 fighting rifle. It's been doing its job just fine.

Just because it was successful doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim much higher. 5.56 has a lot of issues and many cartridges seem to be finding ways to remedy them with little to no compromise. An example (which I admit I haven't researched in a while) is .277 wolverine. Nipping the heels of 6.8 SPC when loaded supersonic, and close to the suppressed performance of .300 Blackout when loaded subsonic. I will say it does have a higher weight/round then 5.56, but I think the amount is small enough and there is a great enough performance increase to make that cartridge well worth it. There are several other chambering that I've read about that are vastly superior to 5.56, the only real problem being the economy of scale, which it is up to us to create. We can do better and we can't rely on the military to be our guiding light for innovation. That comes from us and our acceptance of new technology and design.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 12, 2017, 10:20:04 PM
I know people have issues with the 5.56 cartridge, but it's been the cartridge used successfully by professional infantrymen for a long time now.

So was .30-06

And while I'm at it, the M4 is a fine 5.56 fighting rifle. It's been doing its job just fine.

Just because it was successful doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim much higher. 5.56 has a lot of issues and many cartridges seem to be finding ways to remedy them with little to no compromise. An example (which I admit I haven't researched in a while) is .277 wolverine. Nipping the heels of 6.8 SPC when loaded supersonic, and close to the suppressed performance of .300 Blackout when loaded subsonic. I will say it does have a higher weight/round then 5.56, but I think the amount is small enough and there is a great enough performance increase to make that cartridge well worth it. There are several other chambering that I've read about that are vastly superior to 5.56, the only real problem being the economy of scale, which it is up to us to create. We can do better and we can't rely on the military to be our guiding light for innovation. That comes from us and our acceptance of new technology and design.

I don't disagree that there may be better cartridges than the 5.56 to fill the role for the military assault rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting innovations out there, but 5.56 is simply war tested and approved. We can talk about ballistics tests and math all we want; the 5.56 has already been there and done that. It's proven. Its metrics can be measured in tons of dead bad-guys. The other cartridges we are talking about have not yet done so.

As for the military being the 'guiding light for innovation,' I agree that we should not be constrained solely to military ways and methods. But the fact is that the military often and unbelievably, does what they do for good reason, and there are many things you will find 'acceptable' within the civilian tactical community that would fail when put head to head against standard military tech or protocol in a war-zone.  While the military is not the end-all be-all, wars do however demonstrate very clearly what works and what fails.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 12, 2017, 10:25:18 PM
I don't disagree that there may be better cartridges than the 5.56 to fill the role for the military assault rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting innovations out there, but 5.56 is simply war tested and approved. We can talk about ballistics tests and math all we want; the 5.56 has already been there and done that. It's proven. Its metrics can be measured in tons of dead bad-guys. The other cartridges we are talking about have not yet done so.

As for the military being the 'guiding light for innovation,' I agree that we should not be constrained solely to military ways and methods. But the fact is that the military often and unbelievably, does what they do for good reason, and there are many things you will find 'acceptable' within the civilian tactical community that would fail when put head to head against standard military tech or protocol in a war-zone.  While the military is not the end-all be-all, wars do however demonstrate very clearly what works and what fails.

Your point is staying in safe zones in the best way to go and I guess I can't fault your for that. However I would advise that you can't win the jackpot if you don't roll the dice.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 12, 2017, 10:53:07 PM
I don't disagree that there may be better cartridges than the 5.56 to fill the role for the military assault rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting innovations out there, but 5.56 is simply war tested and approved. We can talk about ballistics tests and math all we want; the 5.56 has already been there and done that. It's proven. Its metrics can be measured in tons of dead bad-guys. The other cartridges we are talking about have not yet done so.

As for the military being the 'guiding light for innovation,' I agree that we should not be constrained solely to military ways and methods. But the fact is that the military often and unbelievably, does what they do for good reason, and there are many things you will find 'acceptable' within the civilian tactical community that would fail when put head to head against standard military tech or protocol in a war-zone.  While the military is not the end-all be-all, wars do however demonstrate very clearly what works and what fails.

Your point is staying in safe zones in the best way to go and I guess I can't fault your for that. However I would advise that you can't win the jackpot if you don't roll the dice.

It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Siris on January 13, 2017, 12:34:05 AM
I don't disagree that there may be better cartridges than the 5.56 to fill the role for the military assault rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting innovations out there, but 5.56 is simply war tested and approved. We can talk about ballistics tests and math all we want; the 5.56 has already been there and done that. It's proven. Its metrics can be measured in tons of dead bad-guys. The other cartridges we are talking about have not yet done so.

As for the military being the 'guiding light for innovation,' I agree that we should not be constrained solely to military ways and methods. But the fact is that the military often and unbelievably, does what they do for good reason, and there are many things you will find 'acceptable' within the civilian tactical community that would fail when put head to head against standard military tech or protocol in a war-zone.  While the military is not the end-all be-all, wars do however demonstrate very clearly what works and what fails.

Your point is staying in safe zones in the best way to go and I guess I can't fault your for that. However I would advise that you can't win the jackpot if you don't roll the dice.

It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

Supply and politics, see the FAL and the .308 and read up on how the us basically forced Europe into accepting a larger round because of the NATO agreements. Also consider the monumental scale of rearming and retooling not only the US military but also all the militaries of our allies. And when you factor the cost of that into the equation along with the logistics it's quite a staggering proposition. Now i'm not sayying that 5.56 is superior or vice versa but the truth is that these sort of changes are going to be slow and messy at best in the most ideal of situations.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 13, 2017, 01:05:42 PM
I don't disagree that there may be better cartridges than the 5.56 to fill the role for the military assault rifle. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting innovations out there, but 5.56 is simply war tested and approved. We can talk about ballistics tests and math all we want; the 5.56 has already been there and done that. It's proven. Its metrics can be measured in tons of dead bad-guys. The other cartridges we are talking about have not yet done so.

As for the military being the 'guiding light for innovation,' I agree that we should not be constrained solely to military ways and methods. But the fact is that the military often and unbelievably, does what they do for good reason, and there are many things you will find 'acceptable' within the civilian tactical community that would fail when put head to head against standard military tech or protocol in a war-zone.  While the military is not the end-all be-all, wars do however demonstrate very clearly what works and what fails.

Your point is staying in safe zones in the best way to go and I guess I can't fault your for that. However I would advise that you can't win the jackpot if you don't roll the dice.

It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

Supply and politics, see the FAL and the .308 and read up on how the us basically forced Europe into accepting a larger round because of the NATO agreements. Also consider the monumental scale of rearming and retooling not only the US military but also all the militaries of our allies. And when you factor the cost of that into the equation along with the logistics it's quite a staggering proposition. Now i'm not sayying that 5.56 is superior or vice versa but the truth is that these sort of changes are going to be slow and messy at best in the most ideal of situations.

I understand that there is the issue of massive supply and scale when it comes to the U.S. military and NATO countries. But honestly, the U.S. military literally throws money away at times. We would at least see smaller units, security elements, MEU(SOC)s, U.S. SOCOM units fielding different calibers if the military liked them enough. Also, law enforcement such as local and state SWAT teams are not nearly as bound to equipment uniformity as the military is. You also have units such as F.B.I. HRT that likely has their pick of equipment, as well as DEA, ICE and other Federal law enforcement entities. And they nearly all use the venerable 5.56 cartridge fired from the M4 platform.

I've also personally known the cartridge to do its job right. The farthest distance being when I witnessed a squad buddy drop a man standing 600meters away using an M16A4 rifle while resting off the roof of a humvee that I was operating. (My own rifle that I loaned to him, mind you)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 13, 2017, 03:14:15 PM
It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

I'd say that's a vast oversimplification of the situation.  No, they don't know something we don't, they just operate in a completely different paradigm than private citizens.  The parameters that guide their decisions often have little relevance to us.  We can go out and buy whatever we want whenever we want and we answer to nobody except ourselves.  For LE or military to make such a change, they have to spend a lot of money on testing and evaluation, talk to lots of experts, get it cleared by the legal departments while giving them no precedent to follow, etc.  It's a catch 22--"if the FBI, NYPD, LAPD, etc. aren't doing it, why should we do something different?" "They aren't doing it because nobody else is doing it."  "So then why should we do it if nobody else is doing it?"  Etc.

Law Enforcement ESPECIALLY is very sensitive to accusations of using too much force, being too Rambo-ized, etc.  So the linguine-spined bureaucrats are scared of the press finding out that they use bigger bullets than the military uses.  It wasn't until we had some real bad incidents that they even started letting patrol guys have rifles at all!

The military has their own concerns that go way beyond the question of cartridge effectiveness.  Supply chain, logistics, budget, weight vs quantity in the load-out, cost and hassle of a change-over, legacy compatibility, bureaucratic challenges, etc.

So yeah, I think the military and law enforcement can be used as a good argument to say that 5.56 is certainly adequate for certain applications, but they have little relevance to the question of whether we are safe using something else that we think might be even better.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 13, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

I'd say that's a vast oversimplification of the situation.  No, they don't know something we don't, they just operate in a completely different paradigm than private citizens.  The parameters that guide their decisions often have little relevance to us.  We can go out and buy whatever we want whenever we want and we answer to nobody except ourselves.  For LE or military to make such a change, they have to spend a lot of money on testing and evaluation, talk to lots of experts, get it cleared by the legal departments while giving them no precedent to follow, etc.  It's a catch 22--"if the FBI, NYPD, LAPD, etc. aren't doing it, why should we do something different?" "They aren't doing it because nobody else is doing it."  "So then why should we do it if nobody else is doing it?"  Etc.

Law Enforcement ESPECIALLY is very sensitive to accusations of using too much force, being too Rambo-ized, etc.  So the linguine-spined bureaucrats are scared of the press finding out that they use bigger bullets than the military uses.  It wasn't until we had some real bad incidents that they even started letting patrol guys have rifles at all!

The military has their own concerns that go way beyond the question of cartridge effectiveness.  Supply chain, logistics, budget, weight vs quantity in the load-out, cost and hassle of a change-over, legacy compatibility, bureaucratic challenges, etc.

So yeah, I think the military and law enforcement can be used as a good argument to say that 5.56 is certainly adequate for certain applications, but they have little relevance to the question of whether we are safe using something else that we think might be even better.

Very good points. Okay, so here's a question. If combat is essentially a proving zone for gear and weapons, how do we prove these cartridges like .300bo or wolverine if they are not being used anywhere near a combat situation?


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 13, 2017, 05:59:40 PM
It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

I'd say that's a vast oversimplification of the situation.  No, they don't know something we don't, they just operate in a completely different paradigm than private citizens.  The parameters that guide their decisions often have little relevance to us.  We can go out and buy whatever we want whenever we want and we answer to nobody except ourselves.  For LE or military to make such a change, they have to spend a lot of money on testing and evaluation, talk to lots of experts, get it cleared by the legal departments while giving them no precedent to follow, etc.  It's a catch 22--"if the FBI, NYPD, LAPD, etc. aren't doing it, why should we do something different?" "They aren't doing it because nobody else is doing it."  "So then why should we do it if nobody else is doing it?"  Etc.

Law Enforcement ESPECIALLY is very sensitive to accusations of using too much force, being too Rambo-ized, etc.  So the linguine-spined bureaucrats are scared of the press finding out that they use bigger bullets than the military uses.  It wasn't until we had some real bad incidents that they even started letting patrol guys have rifles at all!

The military has their own concerns that go way beyond the question of cartridge effectiveness.  Supply chain, logistics, budget, weight vs quantity in the load-out, cost and hassle of a change-over, legacy compatibility, bureaucratic challenges, etc.

So yeah, I think the military and law enforcement can be used as a good argument to say that 5.56 is certainly adequate for certain applications, but they have little relevance to the question of whether we are safe using something else that we think might be even better.

Agreed with this, and to expand, I might add that the military has had trials where they determined this or that rifle is better than their current standard... And yet chose not to go with it. Again their issue being supply chains and logistics, not effectiveness.

In terms of effectiveness, nothing beats science. You will never find a round that is more effective than scientific analysis says it should be. You won't find 5.56 that hits harder than .308, you won't find .308 that is as precise at a distance as 6.5 creedmoor, etc...

Ignoring scientific analysis for the experiences in the military is certainly staying in the safe zone of equipment and such. Of course, with my pet round .277 wolverine, folks who jumped on the bandwagon could be dressing up the numbers to justify it to themselves, or their equipment could be inaccurate, or any other error. However, if you're willing to trust the MDR which only has the claims of the company creating it to go by, why wouldn't you trust a cartridge which has data put out by many people independent of MDWS corroborating what they've said? Going by the logic of trusting the militaries choice of round, why would you take an MDR over an M4?

Very good points. Okay, so here's a question. If combat is essentially a proving zone for gear and weapons, how do we prove these cartridges like .300bo or wolverine if they are not being used anywhere near a combat situation?
Independent scientific analysis.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 13, 2017, 06:09:49 PM
Very good points. Okay, so here's a question. If combat is essentially a proving zone for gear and weapons, how do we prove these cartridges like .300bo or wolverine if they are not being used anywhere near a combat situation?

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

As far as I'm concerned, the only testing I need would be what a bullet does to a small pig.  I know big pigs can have tough hides and thick bones so it may not be as relevant, but I figure a small pig can give us a pretty good indication of what a bullet would do in a human target.  And pigs are vermin so there's no emotional argument against testing on them.  ;D

To repeat what the other poster said--the military could test a new cartridge and conclude that it's superior to 5.56, but the threshold where it's so superior that it warrants a complete change-over is so high that nothing has reached it yet.  However, if you look at what specialty units are doing you don't see the bar so high.  For example, I think Dutch and British units just adopted .300 Blackout recently.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 13, 2017, 06:24:42 PM

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

I would put forward that when a weapon isn't fielded by a military, 2 and 3 gun matches can be used as a stand in for military trials. Of course I'd want to see unmodified weapons, and perhaps much larger courses of fire, but I think it cold be done with some confidence. It won't provide us with the massive fields of data military usage will, but it will be providing us data from people who tend to find the weakness in a weapons system incredibly quickly, whether the weakness lies is ergos, reliability, accuracy, etc... 2/3 gunners WILL identify an issue, and oftentimes, come up with a solution.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 13, 2017, 07:30:20 PM
It's not about any safe zones. But the concrete fact is that we know 5.56 works. How many bad-guys has .300bo or Wolverine killed? Has any LE SWAT team or military used these? If not, why not? Is there a reason professional organizations don't use these cartridges? Do they know something we don't?

I'd say that's a vast oversimplification of the situation.  No, they don't know something we don't, they just operate in a completely different paradigm than private citizens.  The parameters that guide their decisions often have little relevance to us.  We can go out and buy whatever we want whenever we want and we answer to nobody except ourselves.  For LE or military to make such a change, they have to spend a lot of money on testing and evaluation, talk to lots of experts, get it cleared by the legal departments while giving them no precedent to follow, etc.  It's a catch 22--"if the FBI, NYPD, LAPD, etc. aren't doing it, why should we do something different?" "They aren't doing it because nobody else is doing it."  "So then why should we do it if nobody else is doing it?"  Etc.

Law Enforcement ESPECIALLY is very sensitive to accusations of using too much force, being too Rambo-ized, etc.  So the linguine-spined bureaucrats are scared of the press finding out that they use bigger bullets than the military uses.  It wasn't until we had some real bad incidents that they even started letting patrol guys have rifles at all!

The military has their own concerns that go way beyond the question of cartridge effectiveness.  Supply chain, logistics, budget, weight vs quantity in the load-out, cost and hassle of a change-over, legacy compatibility, bureaucratic challenges, etc.

So yeah, I think the military and law enforcement can be used as a good argument to say that 5.56 is certainly adequate for certain applications, but they have little relevance to the question of whether we are safe using something else that we think might be even better.



However, if you're willing to trust the MDR which only has the claims of the company creating it to go by, why wouldn't you trust a cartridge which has data put out by many people independent of MDWS corroborating what they've said? Going by the logic of trusting the militaries choice of round, why would you take an MDR over an M4?

Very good points. Okay, so here's a question. If combat is essentially a proving zone for gear and weapons, how do we prove these cartridges like .300bo or wolverine if they are not being used anywhere near a combat situation?
Independent scientific analysis.

I don't trust the MDR any more than an M4 as it has no history. I want demonstrable reliability before I decide to purchase the MDR.  Once I have seen plenty of reviews and DT releases data and information concerning the MDR's capabilities, then I will go ahead and place an order.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 13, 2017, 07:36:04 PM
Very good points. Okay, so here's a question. If combat is essentially a proving zone for gear and weapons, how do we prove these cartridges like .300bo or wolverine if they are not being used anywhere near a combat situation?

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

As far as I'm concerned, the only testing I need would be what a bullet does to a small pig.  I know big pigs can have tough hides and thick bones so it may not be as relevant, but I figure a small pig can give us a pretty good indication of what a bullet would do in a human target.  And pigs are vermin so there's no emotional argument against testing on them.  ;D

To repeat what the other poster said--the military could test a new cartridge and conclude that it's superior to 5.56, but the threshold where it's so superior that it warrants a complete change-over is so high that nothing has reached it yet.  However, if you look at what specialty units are doing you don't see the bar so high.  For example, I think Dutch and British units just adopted .300 Blackout recently.

Okay, fair enough.

I still want my first MDR to be in 5.56 before the .308. It does the job. If I start looking into alternate cartridges and something really beats the 5.56 at what it's designed to do, then I might consider changing out. Who knows.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 13, 2017, 08:22:58 PM
There are several other chambering that I've read about that are vastly superior to 5.56, the only real problem being the economy of scale, which it is up to us to create. We can do better and we can't rely on the military to be our guiding light for innovation. That comes from us and our acceptance of new technology and design.

The only way you'll have the economy of scale that you're hoping for is if the US military formally adopts it and retires the 5.56.  Even the 300 Blackout, arguably the biggest breakout cartridge of the past 15 years, is still quite pricey compared to run of the mill 5.56.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 13, 2017, 08:37:00 PM
Agreed with this, and to expand, I might add that the military has had trials where they determined this or that rifle is better than their current standard... And yet chose not to go with it. Again their issue being supply chains and logistics, not effectiveness.

Their issue was that the alternatives that they tested were not objectively superior enough across the board to warrant or justify a change of cartridge.  Study the ACR trials of the late 1980s/early 1990s and see how all the alternatives fared against a baseline M16A2 for more specifics.

Are there better options available?  Yes.  However, they aren't so much better in all areas to justify the change.  300BO has some major advantages, but it also comes with some disadvantages that the military isn't willing to deal with.  The 277 Wolverine is an untested cartridge that does have potential, but again, the pluses aren't enough to make it a viable contender.

Unless I can buy ammunition in sufficient quantities to both train and have some set aside for a rainy day, I'm not interested in the caliber as anything other than a novelty. 


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 13, 2017, 08:40:50 PM

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

I would put forward that when a weapon isn't fielded by a military, 2 and 3 gun matches can be used as a stand in for military trials. Of course I'd want to see unmodified weapons, and perhaps much larger courses of fire, but I think it cold be done with some confidence. It won't provide us with the massive fields of data military usage will, but it will be providing us data from people who tend to find the weakness in a weapons system incredibly quickly, whether the weakness lies is ergos, reliability, accuracy, etc... 2/3 gunners WILL identify an issue, and oftentimes, come up with a solution.

Matches might show quirks, but I doubt you're going to see a $3000 game gun be treated the same way an issue M-4 or M-16 is treated.  Matches might help, but I wouldn't use them as any sort of yardstick for performance beyond what the person behind the gun might be capable of when targets aren't shooting back.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 13, 2017, 09:59:18 PM
Agreed with this, and to expand, I might add that the military has had trials where they determined this or that rifle is better than their current standard... And yet chose not to go with it. Again their issue being supply chains and logistics, not effectiveness.

Their issue was that the alternatives that they tested were not objectively superior enough across the board to warrant or justify a change of cartridge.  Study the ACR trials of the late 1980s/early 1990s and see how all the alternatives fared against a baseline M16A2 for more specifics.

Are there better options available?  Yes.  However, they aren't so much better in all areas to justify the change.  300BO has some major advantages, but it also comes with some disadvantages that the military isn't willing to deal with.  The 277 Wolverine is an untested cartridge that does have potential, but again, the pluses aren't enough to make it a viable contender.

Unless I can buy ammunition in sufficient quantities to both train and have some set aside for a rainy day, I'm not interested in the caliber as anything other than a novelty. 

My point was that of course you can't get .277 for the same amount as 5.56, rather, it's up to us as consumers to determine the best rounds we can and adopt them to get better products in existence.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Whoops on January 13, 2017, 10:02:17 PM

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

I would put forward that when a weapon isn't fielded by a military, 2 and 3 gun matches can be used as a stand in for military trials. Of course I'd want to see unmodified weapons, and perhaps much larger courses of fire, but I think it cold be done with some confidence. It won't provide us with the massive fields of data military usage will, but it will be providing us data from people who tend to find the weakness in a weapons system incredibly quickly, whether the weakness lies is ergos, reliability, accuracy, etc... 2/3 gunners WILL identify an issue, and oftentimes, come up with a solution.

Matches might show quirks, but I doubt you're going to see a $3000 game gun be treated the same way an issue M-4 or M-16 is treated.  Matches might help, but I wouldn't use them as any sort of yardstick for performance beyond what the person behind the gun might be capable of when targets aren't shooting back.

I am not talking about using $3k game guns as our base anyway though, rather standard firearms with minimal or no modifications. And you'll see 3-gunners find ways to break s*** all the time just due to the sheer volume of fire. Testers like nutnfancy should be more common too, guys who shoot a gun, dropping them, beating on them, shooting them not giving them a real rest for a long time. The gun world needs that kind of data. The closest thing we've got is 3 gun right now.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 13, 2017, 10:14:09 PM

I would say that combat is probably more of a proving ground for a weapon design than it is for the performance of a certain cartridge.  Weapon science has figured out how to test ammo performance pretty well at this point in the lab or in non-human soft targets.

I would put forward that when a weapon isn't fielded by a military, 2 and 3 gun matches can be used as a stand in for military trials. Of course I'd want to see unmodified weapons, and perhaps much larger courses of fire, but I think it cold be done with some confidence. It won't provide us with the massive fields of data military usage will, but it will be providing us data from people who tend to find the weakness in a weapons system incredibly quickly, whether the weakness lies is ergos, reliability, accuracy, etc... 2/3 gunners WILL identify an issue, and oftentimes, come up with a solution.

Matches might show quirks, but I doubt you're going to see a $3000 game gun be treated the same way an issue M-4 or M-16 is treated.  Matches might help, but I wouldn't use them as any sort of yardstick for performance beyond what the person behind the gun might be capable of when targets aren't shooting back.

I am not talking about using $3k game guns as our base anyway though, rather standard firearms with minimal or no modifications. And you'll see 3-gunners find ways to break s*** all the time just due to the sheer volume of fire. Testers like nutnfancy should be more common too, guys who shoot a gun, dropping them, beating on them, shooting them not giving them a real rest for a long time. The gun world needs that kind of data. The closest thing we've got is 3 gun right now.

That's nothing compared to a week or two in the field for an infantry unit. You've got troops running with full packs, flak-jackets, kevlar, night vision, etc in the mud or in stream beds for a days on end, running and diving onto the ground and just doing all sorts of abuse to issued gear.

Combine 3-gun with a week of "Tough Mudder," and that might be a better gauge.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 14, 2017, 12:15:37 AM
I guess everybody can decide for themselves regarding their personal mission requirements, but I think us gun nuts get a bit too caught up in the "pursuit of perfect reliability" thing.  In real life (excluding zombie apocalypse or insurgent militia scenarios) even law enforcement will probably never put more than part of a magazine through their rifle in a 2 way engagement.  At most, in a terrorist scenario maybe what--a few magazines?  I bet even the cheapest Olympic Arms AR could get through as much ammo as you or any SWAT guy carries on him without a hiccup.  Anything else is more theoretical or less significant--a malfunction in a training class or at the range really isn't that big a deal, regardless of how the Internet reacts to it!  It's not like your go-to rifle won't be sitting there clean, oiled, and set up with quality ammo, so even if you have issues with a dirty gun and cheap ammo during a class it's really not that relevant.

If I know the warranty is good if I do have a problem, I couldn't care less about Desert Tech or anybody else proving reliability to me first before I'd buy.  A whole lot of Kel-Tec customers seem to agree with me on that.  :P


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Siris on January 14, 2017, 12:40:09 AM
I guess everybody can decide for themselves regarding their personal mission requirements, but I think us gun nuts get a bit too caught up in the "pursuit of perfect reliability" thing.  In real life (excluding zombie apocalypse or insurgent militia scenarios) even law enforcement will probably never put more than part of a magazine through their rifle in a 2 way engagement.  At most, in a terrorist scenario maybe what--a few magazines?  I bet even the cheapest Olympic Arms AR could get through as much ammo as you or any SWAT guy carries on him without a hiccup.  Anything else is more theoretical or less significant--a malfunction in a training class or at the range really isn't that big a deal, regardless of how the Internet reacts to it!  It's not like your go-to rifle won't be sitting there clean, oiled, and set up with quality ammo, so even if you have issues with a dirty gun and cheap ammo during a class it's really not that relevant.

If I know the warranty is good if I do have a problem, I couldn't care less about Desert Tech or anybody else proving reliability to me first before I'd buy.  A whole lot of Kel-Tec customers seem to agree with me on that.  :P

this makes me want to see the guys at iv8888 do an ultimate mdr meltdown


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 14, 2017, 12:53:01 AM
I guess everybody can decide for themselves regarding their personal mission requirements, but I think us gun nuts get a bit too caught up in the "pursuit of perfect reliability" thing.  In real life (excluding zombie apocalypse or insurgent militia scenarios) even law enforcement will probably never put more than part of a magazine through their rifle in a 2 way engagement.  At most, in a terrorist scenario maybe what--a few magazines?  I bet even the cheapest Olympic Arms AR could get through as much ammo as you or any SWAT guy carries on him without a hiccup.  Anything else is more theoretical or less significant--a malfunction in a training class or at the range really isn't that big a deal, regardless of how the Internet reacts to it!  It's not like your go-to rifle won't be sitting there clean, oiled, and set up with quality ammo, so even if you have issues with a dirty gun and cheap ammo during a class it's really not that relevant.

If I know the warranty is good if I do have a problem, I couldn't care less about Desert Tech or anybody else proving reliability to me first before I'd buy.  A whole lot of Kel-Tec customers seem to agree with me on that.  :P

I find it interesting that people hate on Keltec. Yes, their quality control is atrocious, but the RDB is currently the best shooting and handling 5.56 bullpup on the market today. In terms of ergonomics, controls, manual of arms, accuracy, trigger, lightweight, etc.  Reliability is the only issue, and that's a QC issue, not a design one.

I really hope the MDR is significantly better than the RDB, as I dislike all the other alternatives.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: charliemike on January 14, 2017, 12:55:20 AM
I guess everybody can decide for themselves regarding their personal mission requirements, but I think us gun nuts get a bit too caught up in the "pursuit of perfect reliability" thing

Has to survive the Hydraulic Press Test or no-buy.

https://youtu.be/SnFYYNqwznY (https://youtu.be/SnFYYNqwznY)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: MikeSmith on January 14, 2017, 01:48:55 AM
I find it interesting that people hate on Keltec. Yes, their quality control is atrocious, but the RDB is currently the best shooting and handling 5.56 bullpup on the market today. In terms of ergonomics, controls, manual of arms, accuracy, trigger, lightweight, etc.  Reliability is the only issue, and that's a QC issue, not a design one.

I really hope the MDR is significantly better than the RDB, as I dislike all the other alternatives.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was hating on Kel-Tec, but the attitude I often see from Kel-Tec owners is something like "yeah, I had problems but I sent it back under warranty and Kel-Tec fixed it quickly so I'm happy."  People excuse away the QC/reliability issues by saying "Don't worry about it, if you have a problem they are good about fixing it."

Why shouldn't the MDR get the same benefit of the doubt?  :)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 14, 2017, 09:18:25 PM
I find it interesting that people hate on Keltec. Yes, their quality control is atrocious, but the RDB is currently the best shooting and handling 5.56 bullpup on the market today. In terms of ergonomics, controls, manual of arms, accuracy, trigger, lightweight, etc.  Reliability is the only issue, and that's a QC issue, not a design one.

I really hope the MDR is significantly better than the RDB, as I dislike all the other alternatives.

I'm not hating on Kel-Tec, I just view them with a pint of skepticism.  They're innovative as hell, but their track record leaves a lot to be desired.  Remove the production delay issues and look solely at initial product quality, performance, and the percentage of units shipped that had to either be returned, retrofitted, or somehow fixed/modded by the user and that percentage is just way too high.  It looks like they've got something good with the RDB and once I get back on my feet (still out of work for way too long...) I'm planning on getting one. 

From a design perspective, the RDB has some features I'm not really fond of, namely not being able to easily access the chamber without cracking it open, but it's a sound design. 

As for reliability being a QC issue, I think it's also a design issue, too.  If the parts are made to spec, and it isn't reliable, then there's a fault in the design.



Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: HBeretta on January 15, 2017, 12:47:48 AM
I find it interesting that people hate on Keltec. Yes, their quality control is atrocious, but the RDB is currently the best shooting and handling 5.56 bullpup on the market today. In terms of ergonomics, controls, manual of arms, accuracy, trigger, lightweight, etc.  Reliability is the only issue, and that's a QC issue, not a design one.

I really hope the MDR is significantly better than the RDB, as I dislike all the other alternatives.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was hating on Kel-Tec, but the attitude I often see from Kel-Tec owners is something like "yeah, I had problems but I sent it back under warranty and Kel-Tec fixed it quickly so I'm happy."  People excuse away the QC/reliability issues by saying "Don't worry about it, if you have a problem they are good about fixing it."

Why shouldn't the MDR get the same benefit of the doubt?  :)

Mike i understood your point the first time and I think Frostburg misinterpreted what you were getting at.  And, i agree with you - the lifetime warranty and great customer service, at least in my experience, with kel-tec has me less worried about reliability.  moreover, once you've committed to your purchase and have in hands with this kind of reassurance you quickly realize that you're able to enjoy the gun a little more worry free.  also, over a period of time, you quickly realize whether or not you have a quality product that'll provide some longevity so it's a win win in my opinion.  

then again, it's much easier to take a chance on a $1000 gun vs a $2500 gun.  now to carry this further, i've read that kel-tec has about 200 employees and admittedly are a small growing company.  likewise, i've read desert tech is around the same size.  i've experienced kel-tec's customer service first hand.  they've been very responsive with me, polite and i have come through on several occasions with regard to service.  one would hope desert tech would provide the same level of customer service coupled with the pressure of keeping up with demand.  


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Steelviper on January 15, 2017, 02:22:11 AM
Sorry reliability is a must. 1st on the check list. I depend on a firearm for my life and the lives of those around me. Good to know Keltec will fix my rifle, after my funeral.
Used an RFB, until the receiver cracked and luckily only turned it into a single shot and didnt injure me. Took almost a year to get it back. It now sits in the safe.

For those of us that carry a gun for a living, and may only go on living because of a gun, 99% isn't good enough. Would you drive a car wear the brakes only worked 99% of the time?

**edited to correct spelling.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: HBeretta on January 15, 2017, 03:01:36 AM
Sorry reliability is a must. 1st on the check list. I depend on a firearm for my life and the lives of those around me. Good to know Leltec will fix my rifle, after my funeral.
Used an RFB, until the receiver cracked and luckily only turned it into a single shot and didnt injure me. Took almost a year to get it back. It now sits in the safe.

For those of us that carry a gun for a living, and may only go on living because of a gun, 99% isn't good enough. Would you drive a car wear the brakes only worked 99% of the time?

newsflash...no gun is 100% reliable.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Steelviper on January 15, 2017, 10:17:23 AM
Never said 100% nothing mechanical is 100%. I inferred North of 99% percent. Preferably north of 99.9%. My current go to "work" AR has 4,875 rounds through it. During one range session it had one malfunction failure to eject. I couldn't re-create it and no problems before or after- that's 99.98%. I'll take that but Murphy is still out there and on the two way range he is a terrible unforgiving mother*****r.

So range, competition, hunting, and plinking 99 is great. But I won't risk my life on it. So Keltec stays a cool oddity. It died well short of 4,000 rounds (heck it didn't even have 2, 000 rounds in) and it failure was not something an immediate action drill or even remedial action could fix. It had to go to the factory to function again. No thanks Keltec is probably one of the most innovative companies out there but their designs go out to the public untested using us for Beta testing then between slow production rates and years to resolve initial batch defects- it's not worth it.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: rtp on January 15, 2017, 01:02:57 PM
All I'm worried about is that the MDR overall as a platform will be idealized for the .308 caliber, and that
the 5.56 version will not have as much attention given, or that the 5.56 version will be "adapted" to the .308 platform. This would imply that theoretically the MDR as a native 5.56 platform might be constructed slightly differently and perhaps the tuning of the parts and dimensions would be more specific to the 5.56 caliber.  Idk if that made any sense.

The 5.56 MDR is in fact a magwell adapter, barrel and bolt.  There is no '5.56 only' platform which will not be convertible to .308, and there is no difference in the chassis/receiver between buying a .308 MDR or a 5.56 MDR aside from the bolt + barrel plus use of a magwell adapter or not (.308).

What other 'adaptation' or construction differences are you believing to exist in the future??   What parts 'tuned', or changed dimensions?


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Tyris on January 15, 2017, 04:33:54 PM
All I'm worried about is that the MDR overall as a platform will be idealized for the .308 caliber, and that
the 5.56 version will not have as much attention given, or that the 5.56 version will be "adapted" to the .308 platform. This would imply that theoretically the MDR as a native 5.56 platform might be constructed slightly differently and perhaps the tuning of the parts and dimensions would be more specific to the 5.56 caliber.  Idk if that made any sense.

The 5.56 MDR is in fact a magwell adapter, barrel and bolt.  There is no '5.56 only' platform which will not be convertible to .308, and there is no difference in the chassis/receiver between buying a .308 MDR or a 5.56 MDR aside from the bolt + barrel plus use of a magwell adapter or not (.308).

What other 'adaptation' or construction differences are you believing to exist in the future??   What parts 'tuned', or changed dimensions?

Does this apply to the MDR-c as well?

Hmm. I cant find the MDR-c on their website anymore :(
Please tell me they havent killed the shorty.

:|

-T


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Steelviper on January 15, 2017, 07:56:16 PM
For conversion it seems similar to the Colt 901. As far as the MDR-C I don't think they will shrink the entire platform to 5.56 size. Much easier to reduce barrel length, handguard, and adjust gas block than to shrink the hole system.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 15, 2017, 08:05:14 PM
All I'm worried about is that the MDR overall as a platform will be idealized for the .308 caliber, and that
the 5.56 version will not have as much attention given, or that the 5.56 version will be "adapted" to the .308 platform. This would imply that theoretically the MDR as a native 5.56 platform might be constructed slightly differently and perhaps the tuning of the parts and dimensions would be more specific to the 5.56 caliber.  Idk if that made any sense.

The 5.56 MDR is in fact a magwell adapter, barrel and bolt.  There is no '5.56 only' platform which will not be convertible to .308, and there is no difference in the chassis/receiver between buying a .308 MDR or a 5.56 MDR aside from the bolt + barrel plus use of a magwell adapter or not (.308).

What other 'adaptation' or construction differences are you believing to exist in the future??   What parts 'tuned', or changed dimensions?

Does this apply to the MDR-c as well?

Hmm. I cant find the MDR-c on their website anymore :(
Please tell me they havent killed the shorty.

:|

-T

There is one chassis regardless of the final configuration.  You then add the appropriate caliber kit and forearm and you have anything from a runt gun MDR-C to a 19" "DMR" type MDR, but the base chassis (the part of the gun without the barrel, bolt, or forearm) remains the same regardless of caliber or barrel length.  That's the beauty of the design; you can have a 10.5" barrel, 16" barrel, or 19" barrel, all on the same gun during the same range session, and each can be in a different caliber.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Ascinder on January 16, 2017, 02:00:32 AM
Quote
Does this apply to the MDR-c as well?

Hmm. I cant find the MDR-c on their website anymore Sad
Please tell me they havent killed the shorty.

[/quote]

There is one chassis regardless of the final configuration.  You then add the appropriate caliber kit and forearm and you have anything from a runt gun MDR-C to a 19" "DMR" type MDR, but the base chassis (the part of the gun without the barrel, bolt, or forearm) remains the same regardless of caliber or barrel length.  That's the beauty of the design; you can have a 10.5" barrel, 16" barrel, or 19" barrel, all on the same gun during the same range session, and each can be in a different caliber.
[/quote]

All caliber preferences aside, to me, ^this^ is just another nail in the coffin of DT's marketing campaign. How is there still any confusion about these fundamental selling points this far down the road? They have repeatedly stated what Kurt is reiterating in his post, but it isn't featured prominently enough in their sales literature to be commonplace at this point. Newsflash DT, this is what is going to sell your MDR's. As a side note, DT probably took the MDR-C off of the site to keep attention focused on the products they are working on fielding now (.308 and then 5.56). The MDR-C should pop (back) up once their initial complement of rifles/calibers winds down enough to allow them to tool up for the MDR-C conversions.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled caliber debate:

                                   



Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Tyris on January 16, 2017, 04:35:59 AM
Thanks guys. I'm hoping to eventually get an MDR-c.
It seems to be the best cross between my AUG and Ps90, and an ideal PDW.
I'm hoping they keep to common barrel threads so I can pop any can on there.

-T


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 16, 2017, 02:20:19 PM
Sorry reliability is a must. 1st on the check list. I depend on a firearm for my life and the lives of those around me. Good to know Keltec will fix my rifle, after my funeral.
Used an RFB, until the receiver cracked and luckily only turned it into a single shot and didnt injure me. Took almost a year to get it back. It now sits in the safe.

For those of us that carry a gun for a living, and may only go on living because of a gun, 99% isn't good enough. Would you drive a car wear the brakes only worked 99% of the time?

**edited to correct spelling.

Honestly, as much as I praise the RDB for all its groundbreaking features, this is my only gripe
with the rifle. The rifle might be lightweight, accurate, intuitive controls etc, but if it is not reliable,
then I am turned off.  While my RDB handles great, the extractor pin fell out after my last range session. Keltec has sent me a replacement, but it slid in a little "too easy." The experience immediately killed my confidence in the rifle for any type of serious defensive use.

It's such a shame too. I called Keltec and while they did send me a new extractor pin, they didn't give me much of any explanation as to why this occurred even though other RDB owners online are reporting the same issue. They told me to send it in to have it checked.  I'm frustrated because I really don't like the Tavor, and the AUG isn't perfect either. So I'm either stuck using an AR or sucking it up and using my Tavor.  That's why the 5.56 MDR is important to me. Or Keltec could just fix the RDB to ensure reliability...


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: LockeCTH on January 16, 2017, 04:38:57 PM
I'm frustrated because I really don't like the Tavor, and the AUG isn't perfect either. So I'm either stuck using an AR or sucking it up and using my Tavor.

Purely out of curiosity, what do you not like about the Tavor? I was looking at getting one really hard a few years ago but didn't follow through.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 16, 2017, 04:58:10 PM
I'm frustrated because I really don't like the Tavor, and the AUG isn't perfect either. So I'm either stuck using an AR or sucking it up and using my Tavor.

Purely out of curiosity, what do you not like about the Tavor? I was looking at getting one really hard a few years ago but didn't follow through.

Namely three things.

1. Weight. It's noticeably heavier than a comparable AR and my RDB. If you live in the mountains
like I do and your backup plan might mean hiking up hills and mountains for a good bit, you want to save every ounce.

2. Bulk.  I prefer slimmer designs as they are less cumbersome and makes interacting with your gear, webbing much easier.

3. Accuracy. I know there are lots of people who are proud of their 1.5 moa groups with their Tavors, but for most people that is the exception rather than the norm. Also often involves the heavy use of aftermarket parts and accessories, that often times only add additional weight.  Objectively, my Tavor shoots the largest groups when compared side by side with my AUG, AR15 and RDB. Like I said, I live in the mountains; longer shots are a good possibility.  Also, the Tavor sighting system is generally high over
the bore, thus limiting the types of optics you can use, and noticeably affecting hold points in terms
of the trajectory. The Tavor is a close range fighter and I need a rifle that is good in close-indoor fighting
as well as longer range shooting (This is the entire reason I gravitate towards bullpups).


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 16, 2017, 09:16:43 PM
Quote
Does this apply to the MDR-c as well?

Hmm. I cant find the MDR-c on their website anymore Sad
Please tell me they havent killed the shorty.


There is one chassis regardless of the final configuration.  You then add the appropriate caliber kit and forearm and you have anything from a runt gun MDR-C to a 19" "DMR" type MDR, but the base chassis (the part of the gun without the barrel, bolt, or forearm) remains the same regardless of caliber or barrel length.  That's the beauty of the design; you can have a 10.5" barrel, 16" barrel, or 19" barrel, all on the same gun during the same range session, and each can be in a different caliber.
[/quote]

All caliber preferences aside, to me, ^this^ is just another nail in the coffin of DT's marketing campaign. How is there still any confusion about these fundamental selling points this far down the road? They have repeatedly stated what Kurt is reiterating in his post, but it isn't featured prominently enough in their sales literature to be commonplace at this point. Newsflash DT, this is what is going to sell your MDR's. As a side note, DT probably took the MDR-C off of the site to keep attention focused on the products they are working on fielding now (.308 and then 5.56). The MDR-C should pop (back) up once their initial complement of rifles/calibers winds down enough to allow them to tool up for the MDR-C conversions.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled caliber debate:
[/quote]

I think DT has stated quite clearly several times that there is only one chassis and everything else is added to it to make whichever model/caliber the user wants.  I think part of the confusion is that they don't continually reinforce this and as some have said, the MDR-C seems to have been put on the back burner for now.  Another issue is that the same question is asked over and over; I know it's been asked several times in this forum alone.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Tyris on January 16, 2017, 10:32:22 PM
In my own defense, the reason I asked about the calibers for the MDR-c is this:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/db/c0/1b/dbc01b6412c9786f29f9273fe7944335.jpg)

That image shows no .308 for the shorty, which is fine by me, but it implies that it would be a different receiver?
(besides 308 out of a 10" barrel would be absurdly loud!)

News that the MDR-c is back-burnered is disheartening. I don't have much interest in the full length MDR.
In my opinion it does not have enough of an advantage over an AUG for me to consider it especially considering the weaker magazines, but the MDR-c is a different beast worthy of consideration as it is a significant jump up from a P90 while retaining similar size.

-T


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: coldboremiracle on January 17, 2017, 01:59:07 AM
In my own defense, the reason I asked about the calibers for the MDR-c is this:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/db/c0/1b/dbc01b6412c9786f29f9273fe7944335.jpg)

That image shows no .308 for the shorty, which is fine by me, but it implies that it would be a different receiver?
(besides 308 out of a 10" barrel would be absurdly loud!)

News that the MDR-c is back-burnered is disheartening. I don't have much interest in the full length MDR.
In my opinion it does not have enough of an advantage over an AUG for me to consider it especially considering the weaker magazines, but the MDR-c is a different beast worthy of consideration as it is a significant jump up from a P90 while retaining similar size.

-T


That image is very old, and outdated. I would not consider anything therein suitable for making assumptions or decisions.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Tyris on January 17, 2017, 04:49:53 AM

That image is very old, and outdated. I would not consider anything therein suitable for making assumptions or decisions.

Noted, thanks.

Can you comment on the state of affairs for the MDR-c -- will it be released later than the normal version? or better yet, why has any mention of it been removed from the DT website?

For what its worth, this is the model I'm particularly interested in :D

-T


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: EWTHeckman on January 17, 2017, 01:53:36 PM
Can you comment on the state of affairs for the MDR-c -- will it be released later than the normal version? or better yet, why has any mention of it been removed from the DT website?

As an outsider I think an MDR C version makes a lot of sense. All you would need is a shorter barrel, a shorter hand guard, and possibly some tweaks to the gas block. That is significantly simpler than getting the basic rifle out. I can easily see DT developing such a variant once they've caught up with demand for the base rifle.

But given the development and production delays, that could easily be more than a year out. Therefore, it makes sense for them to avoid promoting something that we won't see for quite some time. That would be all the reason needed to remove that graphic from their web site.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: LockeCTH on January 17, 2017, 02:58:43 PM
As an outsider I think an MDR C version makes a lot of sense. All you would need is a shorter barrel, a shorter hand guard, and possibly some tweaks to the gas block. That is significantly simpler than getting the basic rifle out. I can easily see DT developing such a variant once they've caught up with demand for the base rifle.

But given the development and production delays, that could easily be more than a year out. Therefore, it makes sense for them to avoid promoting something that we won't see for quite some time. That would be all the reason needed to remove that graphic from their web site.

Especially considering the backlash they received for their optimistic timeline for the MDR and how frustrated a number of people were about such an early marketing push. I couldn't blame them at all if they stayed quiet about potential upcoming features/versions/accessories, etc. until much closer to production.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Ascinder on January 19, 2017, 04:06:13 AM
The bottom line is no one actually knows and anything you are likely to hear here will be speculation. They had a working MDR-C running full auto quite awhile ago. The groundwork has already been laid and if what DT was saying about durability testing and manufacturing bugs being the holdups, then the MDR-C is just a matter of using their existing working system with parts that have now been put through the ringer. I am sure the idea they are running with, but not really putting out there, is that if you are a smart individual, you will put in the SBR paperwork right when you get your fullsize rifle, and by the time the conversion kit is out, your paperwork will (hopefully) have been approved. In the meantime, you will at least have a rifle to play with. Makes sense to me.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Sdevante on January 19, 2017, 10:30:56 AM
(I)f you are a smart individual, you will put in the SBR paperwork right when you get your fullsize rifle, and by the time the conversion kit is out, your paperwork will (hopefully) have been approved. In the meantime, you will at least have a rifle to play with. Makes sense to me.

This. I think it’s worth the $200 risk to file right away and hope that the ultimate in badassery gets released in the future. A suppressed 300 BLK MDR-c would be so, so very cool.

Then it would be fun to see who takes longer - ATF or DT lol.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Chief Master on January 19, 2017, 11:21:52 AM
I think it’s worth the $200 risk to file right away and hope that the ultimate in badassery gets released in the future. A suppressed 300 BLK MDR-c would be so, so very cool.
If DT doesn't do it, I'm sure someone else will sell you a shortened barrel and a handguard... :)


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Frostburg on January 19, 2017, 03:27:18 PM
Desert Tech MDR magazine well adapter---
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ljrm7c.jpg)


The image of that 5.56 magazine well adaptor worries me. It's too much of a square and precise fit.
When you have a magazine well, you want it somewhat flared and open so the magazine and slide in smooth without accidentally catching or something. You are going to be doing mag changes fast and are not always going to be looking directly at the mag well to ensure that you are fitting the magazine, jigsaw puzzle level precise.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Sdevante on January 19, 2017, 03:30:47 PM
That is an old pic of a prototype three or more gen's back. It shares little with the current gen, other than similar bolt catch/release placement, and the magazine itself.

Just gonna drop this here...


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: charliemike on January 19, 2017, 03:31:11 PM
What Sdevante & coldboremiracle said. That's an old one, don't worry about it.


Title: Re: For 5.56 users, will the MDR be worth it?
Post by: Ascinder on January 20, 2017, 03:54:16 AM
Quote
When you have a magazine well, you want it somewhat flared and open so the magazine and slide in smooth without accidentally catching or something.

Sounds like an easy fix for the aftermarket too (or anyone with a mill).